Monument Weapons

[George Eller]

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A picture that I took in Tiberias, Israel in 1979. IIRC, it was a French made 65mm mountain gun used by the Israelis against the Syrians in the 1948 Middle East War.

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[tankgeezer]

Originally Posted by Panzerknacker

That mean a .52 caliber Spencer or a .54 Sharp is in the same level as an UZI ??

For some reason that does not sound logic, but of course logic is not the usual prerrogative of gun law makers.

Good catch my friend! I had forgotten about those rifles, regular type firearms, like the different types of original, and reproduction, rifles & carbines are not considered destructive devices, even being breech loaders over .500 inch,they are in a different catagory of anitique, curio, or relic.but a breech loading cannon, even a small scale model is considered a D.D. if the bore is .510 " or larger. Then there is the question of it being a short barreled rifle,or shotgun, if rifled, and chambered for anything larger than a pistol cartridge, the BBL length must be greater than 16" (including chamber I believe)and for a shot shell chamber with smooth bore, greater than 18" Some salute cannon are exempt from this general rule, so its always better to check before building. Like you say, logic is forbidden in the making of laws.
There is a site on the web that deals in model cannon, and parts, so you might find ideas, or things you might purchase from them, cannonmania.com its fun just to have a look through their site, very cool stuff.

[Panzerknacker]

Destructive device ? that sounds sinister hehe thanks for the legal info TankG

Nice Pictures George, I remeber vaguely a History Channel program of the series "Tales of the gun" in wich some like that was showed, it seems that the IAF destroyed an arab tank in 1948 with the old french guns..

[Panzerknacker]

One mine, hehe, German field howitzer Krupp M1910 cal. 75 mm depicted in Molinari, some 65 km from home.





Our beautiful national crest engraved on the breech: "Modelo Argentino serial 493"



The pictures was taken in december, that explains my "summer uniform"

[tankgeezer]

Great Crest on that howitzer, don't see them like that anymore,, That would make another fine holiday salute cannon

[George Eller]

Originally Posted by George Eller

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A picture that I took in Tiberias, Israel in 1979. IIRC, it was a French made 65mm mountain gun used by the Israelis against the Syrians in the 1948 Middle East War.

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Originally Posted by Panzerknacker

Nice Pictures George, I remember vaguely a History Channel program of the series "Tales of the gun" in which some like that was showed, it seems that the IAF destroyed an arab tank in 1948 with the old french guns..

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Thanks Panzerknacker,

IIRC, four of the French made 65mm guns were positioned on the high ground west of the Jordan Valley
where they helped to hold the Syrians back.

Here are some more pictures that I took in Israel in 1979-80:


A knocked-out Syrian tank from the 1948 War located near the entrance to Kibbutz Degania Aleph.
The tank is a French built Renault R-35. (Syria had been a French mandate after the First World War).
It was knocked out by “Molotov cocktails". I have seen more recent pictures of this tank with it's
main gun reinstalled. http://www.degania.org.il/eng/tour3.htm


A plaque near the knocked-out Syrian tank from the 1948 war.
This is located at Kibbutz Degania Aleph near the southern tip of Lake Kineret (Sea of Galilee).

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Kibbutz Degania Aleph
http://www.degania.org.il/eng/general.htm

http://www.degania.org.il/eng/history3.htm

On the 15th of May, 1948, in the evening, car lights were seen moving from Kfar Hareb (today Kfar Haruv) along the Golan Heights. This was the Syrian invasion force. Facing a reinforced Syrian brigade assisted by an armored battalion and an artillery battalion, stood the units of the “Barak” battalion of the Golani Brigade as well as men from the settlements.

After shelling and bombarding the settlements, part of the Syrian force descended and took position at Tel-el-Kasr (Tel Katzir of today) and from there advanced under the cover of artillery towards the military camp near Tzemach (Kibbutz Ma’agan of today) and towards the new quarantine, east of Kibbutz Ma’agan. The Syrian advance was not decisive and the battle for the Tzemach police station was delayed for as long as the kibbutzim Sha’ar Hagolan and Massada held out. However at daybreak of May 19th, after the inhabitants of Massada and Sha’ar Hagolan were evacuated, the way was open before the Syrian army and after heavy fighting it gained control of Tzemach.


The Syrian tank at Degania's gates - 1948

On the morning of the 20th of May a delegation from the two “Deganias” arrived in Tel Aviv, demanding reinforcements from the high command for the defence of the settlements. Yigael Yadin, then Chief Operations Officer of the General Staff, said: “there is no way out but to let the Arabs draw 20-30 meters closer to the gates of Degania and then fight face to face against their armour”.

The attack on Degania started on the 20th of May at 04:30 hours. Its main objective was the Jordan River bridge north of Degania. Five tanks moved forward under artillery cover, along with several armored cars and a company of infantry.

The armor, deployed before the bridge, gave the infantry cover and hit the positions along the perimeter fence. The defenders evacuated them and deployed in the communications ditches, alongside the fence. There were about seventy of them - Degania members, people from the surrounding settlements, remnants of the “Barak” battalion and additional reinforcements. Some of the Syrian armor was hit by a 20 mm cannon located in the Beit Yerach area, and some continued moving up to the fence. One tank even succeeded in breaking throught it. The defenders hit this tank with “Molotov cocktails” and caused heavy casualties to the infantry behind the armor. The failed attempts and high casualties eroded the confidence of the Syrian army and on the night of the 21st of May the soldiers of the Syrian brigade withdrew from the Degania line and returned to their opening positions at Tel-el-Kasr. The defenders took position again at Tzemach and served as a buffer between the defenders of Degania and the Syrians on the Tel (hill). The Syrians abandoned Tel-el-Kasr in the wake of the Armistice agreements.

Sixty seven of the fallen in the battle for the Jordan Valley are buried in the military cemetery at Degania ‘A’, among them eight members and sons of Degania.

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[Panzerknacker]

Good one, the part I remember was that this tank was first hit with the 65 mm and then finally killed with molotovs.

[George Eller]

Originally Posted by Panzerknacker

Good one, the part I remember was that this tank was first hit with the 65 mm and then finally killed with molotovs.

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Thanks Panzerknacker,

Some additional information about the French made 65mm mountain guns used by Israel during the 1948 Middle East War:

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Canon de 65 M(montagne) modele 1906
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_d...29_modele_1906

The Canon de 65 M(montagne) modele 1906 (65 mm mle.1906) was a French mountain gun which entered the regiments d'artillerie de montagne in 1906. By 1939, the weapon was generally used as an infantry support gun. This was one of the first soft-recoil guns. After 1940, the Germans would use these as 6.5cm GebK 221(f). The gun was also used by Albania, Greece, Israel (1948 Arab-Israeli War, as Napoleonchik) and Poland.

Specifications:

Calibre: 65 mm
Elevation: −9°30′ to +35°
Muzzle velocity: 330 m/s
Range: 6.5 km
Traverse: 6°
Weight: 400 kg
Shell weight: 4.4 kg



French Canon de 65 M(montagne) modele 1906 Schneider-Ducrest (known in Israel as Napoleonchik - a little Napoleon). Yad Mordechai Museum.

ALSO:
http://www.artillerie.info/FAQ/Canon...2065%20Mle.pdf

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Canon de montagne de 65 mm Mle 1906 - Schneider-Ducrest 65 mm M. 1906 mountain gun
http://www.artillerie.info/FAQ/canondemontagned.html

The French 65 mm mountain gun model 1906, official French designation Canon de montagne Mle 1906, succeeded to the older designed 80 mm de Bange mountain gun model 1878, officially known as Canon de 80 mm de montagne Mle 1878.
Like its counterparts, this type of guns was more often used as a light gun as well in North-Africa as in the other French colonies. The naval museum in Haifa (Israel) exhibit is showing an excellent state of conservation albeit missing the rear section of the trail.





Cartridge (complete blow) of the gun of mountain of 65 mm Mle 1906.
Manufacture ARS 1918
Dimensions of the casing: approximately 65 X 175 mm.

Cartouche (coup complet) du canon de montagne de 65 mm Mle 1906.
Fabrication ARS 1918
Dimensions de la douille : environ 65 x 175 mm.

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http://translate.google.com/translat...%3Den%26sa%3DG

A few months ago I spotted a beautiful little French Mountain Gun [c.1910]
displayed in the garden outside the door of the Manager's office in a Tel Aviv public park.
[In my ignorance at the time I thought that perhaps it was an old piece bought in for some later scrap].

Chris, your first information was spot-on; 65mm. The maker's plaque on the chassis says
"Manufacture
1910 No.114 1910 No.114
D'Armes de Tulle" D'Armes de Tulle "

There in also an inscription on the left side near the breach, however this may have been added later when the French left it behind [?] "Canon de 65 Ml [partly obscured] De Montaine No.10 ABS 1919"

The gun occupies a place of honour in the garden outside of the park manager's office [however its condition is not being helped by the sprinkler system for the flowers]. The gardeners refer to it as their 'little Napoleon.'

The park itself occupies an area of the northern bank of the Nahr el-'Auja [Yarkon] which saw action in 1917. At that time "it was in Turkish hands. During the night of 20-21 December 1917 the British 52nd Division commanded by Maj-Gen Hill, forced a surprise crossing at three different points. At daybreak pontoon bridges were thrown over the 'Auja, and a barrel bridge, previously assembled in the Wadi el-Musrara [Nahr el-Baride on British maps] was floated into the 'Auja and completed on the morning of the 22nd."

Gen Hill commemorated the success by setting up an inscribed broken pillar, a monument which is still in place today.

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65mm mountain gun M1906

This is a light gun introduced before World war 1 and used by the French into the 1940's. This is a light gun introduced before World war 1 and used by the French into the 1940's. It was designed as a light weight field gun for use by mountain troops and could be broken down into pack loads for transport by pack animal.

The M1906 used a peculiar recoil system, the barrel was held at full recoil until fired, when the gun was triggered the barrel would move forward and the round would fire just before the barrel reached the full forward position causing the force of the shell to stop forward movement of the barrel before it reached the end of its travel, the remaining force was used to move the barrel backward into it prefiring position, this allowed the use of a much lighter recoil system reducing the weight of the gun. The drawback to this system is that if the round was a dud the gun could tip over onto the bore from the forward movement of the barrel, if the crew was having a particularly bad day the round might hang fire, tipping the gun downward into the ground and then a few seconds later the round would go off firing the shell into the ground with predictable results.

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[tankgeezer]

those are some awsome pics guys,, especially the tank,, not often do you find them knacked in situ, very nifty! The French artillery pieces are nice too. There is one not too far away, in a park, so when I get over that way, I'll get some pics of it.

[George Eller]

Originally Posted by tankgeezer

those are some awsome pics guys,, especially the tank,, not often do you find them knacked in situ, very nifty! The French artillery pieces are nice too. There is one not too far away, in a park, so when I get over that way, I'll get some pics of it.

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Thanks Tankgeezer,

The old bunkers from that war were still there, but the trenches had long since been filled in. IIRC, in a different area of that region that I visited, there were even some old Turkish blockhouses that once guarded some segments of now abandoned Ottoman Empire rail lines from the First World War.

I look forward to your pics.

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[Panzerknacker]

Nice info mister Eller, with shell and all

A nice Bofors 105mm extracted from an argentine destroyer, now is gate guardian in Cordoba shooting Range.

[George Eller]

Originally Posted by Panzerknacker

Nice info mister Eller, with shell and all

A nice Bofors 105mm extracted from an argentine destroyer, now is gate guardian in Cordoba shooting Range.

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Nice pic Panzerknacker

A 4.1 inch naval gun.

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[Panzerknacker]

Beautiful indeed, not far away there is a 155 mm Puteaux field gun but I had run out of batteries , the next time maybe.

[George Eller]

Originally Posted by Panzerknacker

Beautiful indeed, not far away there is a 155 mm Puteaux field gun but I had run out of batteries , the next time maybe.

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I look forward to seeing that

Here are some pics that I took in July 2001 at Fort Pulaski, Georgia.

American Civil War - Fort Pulaski - near Savannah, Georgia.
Some of the seacoast guns mounted on carriages on the parapets and some casemate guns in the fort.

Photographs taken July 2001.
Posing in pictures are my nephew (wearing confederate kepi), my younger brother (wearing bluejeans and blue cap),
and a friend (wearing white cap and shorts).



Above: my younger brother posing beside some casemate guns.

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Fort Pulaski National Monument



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Pu...ional_Monument

http://www.nps.gov/fopu/

http://www.generalatomic.com/PerrysSaints/chapter6.html

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SEE ALSO: (Civil War cannons)

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...34&postcount=5

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...528#post113528

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[tankgeezer]

It was a nice warm day, and the bike said, "Lets go for a ride" so we went to the City of Racine, south of my town, where there are two nice monument guns, just a stone's throw apart.
The first, a French howitzer, is part of a small park, and has been there for some time. The park people maintain it, and it seems well preserved. I looked for a maker's mark, but found only military nomenclature,
10cm-M-14-FH-Nr.573-1916
A french gun is unusual in these parts, so this is a treat.

Next there is a cemetary just across from the park, and there is a complete Gun, and Limber from the American Civil War. It looks to be a 12 pdr, about 3 inch bore, in very nice condition, well maintained you could shoot this one,but be wary of old cast iron guns, they can fly apart with out warning.
There was no visible nomenclature, or dates, (painted over I'm thinking) so this could be a later model rolled wrought iron gun. hard to say. So, enjoy the pics.