Alternative Fighters for the Luftwaffe.

[Panzerknacker]

Actually is more like the Messerschmitt P.1091 who was a Competitor for the high altitude Me-155/B&V 155 program.

http://home.wanadoo.nl/r.j.o/skyraider/mep1091a_1.htm

[Digger]

Thanks for that Panzerknacker, the other paintings are much clearer. I was a bit stumped by the wing configuration, so good detective work. While I am interested in German aircraft development, I don't pay much attention to 'drawing board developments' as my research is concentrated on aircraft that reached at least prototype status.

Again though this development by Messerschmitt highlights the waste in German research and development. So much effort put in to programmes with little chance of success.

Regards to all,
Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

Indeed the Blohm & voss teams desing and the Messerchmitt technical staff fought between them to achieve this design but the results were inconclused, completely maniac aircraft, only 2 were made by B & V in Hamburg.

BV-155B (V2)



The task of this aircraft was to intercep the B-29s, a menace wich never was over the german skies.

Pic from: http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/str404.htm

[Firefly]

Originally Posted by Digger

Thanks for that Panzerknacker, the other paintings are much clearer. I was a bit stumped by the wing configuration, so good detective work. While I am interested in German aircraft development, I don't pay much attention to 'drawing board developments' as my research is concentrated on aircraft that reached at least prototype status.

Again though this development by Messerschmitt highlights the waste in German research and development. So much effort put in to programmes with little chance of success.

Regards to all,
Digger.

I couldnt agree more. The Nazi system squandered resources by competing against each other. Goering had his projects, Himmler his and others theirs. Hitler liked to keep his underlings competing against each other and the results were, thankfully for us, terrible for the Nazis.

[Panzerknacker]

And if you add the excesive taste for prototipes wich seems be a german caracteristic... ...wasted time and resources.

-------------------------

Messerschmitt Me-209.


The Me-209 was essentially a purpose-built air racer whose only real commonality with the "Bf-109" was its DB-601 engine. It won a world speed record of 756 KPH (almost 470 MPH) on 26 April 1939. Willy Messerschmitt decided to see if the racer might make a good fighter, and came up with the "Me-209V4" prototype, which performed its initial flight on 12 May 1939. The fighter prototype strongly resembled the original Me-209 air racer, but had many changes, including a new wing, taller vertical tailplane, and provision for two MG-17 guns in the cowling and an MG-FF/M Motorkanone.


An air racer is a highly specialized aircraft and is not generally suited for military use. The Me-209V4's ground and flight handling were terrible, and successive tweaks over a year's time did nothing but raise the aircraft's weight until it couldn't win an air race against an Emil, much less the improved Frederick that was in the works. Messerschmitt finally cut his losses and gave up on the idea.


The real competitor was the last evolved version of the Bf-109, the "Me-209-II", which confusingly had nothing to do with the original Me-209 racer. The "clean-sheet" Me-309 having proven a failure, Messerschmitt decided to see if the Bf-109G design could be modified to create the next-generation fighter he had wanted.
The Me-209-II had a redesigned tail; landing gear that hinged in the wings instead of the fuselage, eliminating the Bf-109's troublesome narrow track; an uprated engine; a taller tailfin; and a DB-603 engine with an annular radiator that misleadingly suggested a radial engine. However, as design of the Me-209-II progressed, one change demanded another, and it became increasingly dissimilar to the Bf-109G.


The first prototype, the "Me-209V5", following in number sequence of the entirely different Me-209V4 of 1939, took to the air on 3 November 1943. It was supposed to be the prototype for the "Me-209A-1" production aircraft, with an MK-108 Motorkanone and an MG-131 in each wingroot.

Cutaway Me-209 V5.




A number of experimental modification kits were developed for this prototype, including MK-108s mounted in a fairing that extended back over the top of the wing. This fit actually turned out to improve the aircraft's flight characteristics and the idea would be used on some other aircraft designs later.
A second prototype, the "Me-209V6", followed. It was similar to the Me-209V4 but fitted with a Jumo 213 engine with annular radiator, and MG-151/20s replacing the MG-131s in the wing roots. It was supposed to be the prototype for the "Me-209A-2" production aircraft. A third prototype, for a high-altitude fighter variant designated the "Me-209H", was rolled out in the spring of 1944. The "Me-209HV1" featured extended wings and a DB-603E engine. The variant was supposed to be fitted with advanced turbocharged Daimler-Benz engines such as the DB-628A, but by late spring 1944 all work on the Me-209 had been abandoned, since its compatibility with existing production lines had almost completely evaporated. The RLM settled on the Focke-Wulf Ta-152H as the Reich's high-altitude fighter.

Sources:

www.warbirdsresourcegroup.com

http://www.vectorsite.net/avbf109_3.html#m1

[FW-190 Pilot]

how about Me-328, where the military are trying to lanuch their plane from a bomber

[Panzerknacker]

The Me-328 suposedly was an "parasite fighter" wich shall be used to protect long range aircraft, such as the "Amerika Bombers" Ju-390, Me-264.

[Panzerknacker]

3 view of the Jumo 213 powered Me-209 V6.

[Panzerknacker]

Focke-Wulf-Tank Ta-154.

The Focke-Wulf Ta 154 Moskito was a fast Germannight fighter designed by Kurt Tank and produced by Focke-Wulf late in World War II. Only a few were produced and proved to have less impressive performance than the prototypes.



Kurt Tank's team at Focke-Wulf had been working for some time on a fast attack bomber called the Ta 211, so named because it planned to use an uprated Jumo 211R engine. The plane was a high-wing twin-engine design that bears a strong resemblance to the Grumman F7F Tigercat, and was built primarily of plywood bonded with a special glue called Tego-Film. The only large-scale use of metal was in the pressurized cockpit.
In August 1942 the RLM (the German Air Ministry) asked for designs to meet a need for a dedicated night-fighter, and the competition quickly boiled down to the Heinkel He 219 and an adapted version of the Ta 211 called the Ta 154. Fifteen prototypes of each were ordered for further testing. Throughout the contest the RLM generally favored the 219 due to its better visibility and range. They also seemed to be suspicious of the 154's wooden construction. In 1942 the Messerschmitt Me 210 should have been the only plane considered, but it was suffering terrible development problems and was ignored.



It was at about this time that the light and very fast de Havilland Mosquito, also made of wood, arrived over Germany. It quickly racked up an impressive record; in its first 600 bombing missions only 1 was shot down, compared to an average of 1 in 5 for heavy bombers. Erhard Milch personally requested a purpose-built German answer, and selected the 154. Infighting within German circles started almost immediately, because the RLM and nightfighter units still wanted the He 219. Milch took this personally, and spent the better part of the next two years trying to have the 219 killed.



Development of the Ta 154 was already well advanced, and the first prototype V1 with Jumo 211F engines flew on July 1st, 1943. It was followed by V2 with Jumo 211N engines, which was kept at the factory for handling trials. V1 was then sent to Rechlin-Lärz Airfield for fly-off testing against the 219 and the new Junkers Ju 388. There the 154 reached almost 700 km/h and easily outflew the other two planes, but they were both fully armed and included radar.



The first armed version of the Ta 154 was the V3, which also was the first to fit the Jumo 211R engines. The added weight of the guns and drag of the radar antennas slowed the plane by a full 75 km/h, although it was still somewhat faster than the 219. The rest of the 15 prototypes were then delivered as A-0 models, identical to V3. Some of these also included a raised canopy for better vision to the rear.
It quickly became clear that the Jumo 211R would not be available any time soon, if at all. Future production turned to the more powerful Jumo 213A, but this was also suffering from long delays. The 154 program spent most of the next year testing various prototypes, and sent many of the A-0's to Erprobungskommando 154. During these tests the plane showed an alarming tendency to break its landing gear, and about half of the V series were lost this way.




By June 1944 the Jumo 213 was finally arriving in some numbers, and a small run of 154 A-1's was completed with these engines. Just prior to delivery the only factory making Tego-Film, in Wuppertal, was bombed out, and the plywood glue had to be replaced by one that was not as strong, and was later found to react chemically with wood. In July several A-1's crashed with wing failure due to plywood delamination. This same problem also critically affected the Heinkel He 162 Spatz, Ernst Heinkel's "Volksjager" jet fighter program entry.
Tank halted production in August, and the RLM eventually cancelled the entire project in September (Milch had been removed by this point). In that time about 50 production versions had been completed, and a number of the A-0 pre-production planes were later modified to the production standard. Some of the planes served with NJG 3, and a few were later used as training aircraft for jet pilots.
[edit]

Specifications (Ta 154 A-1)

• Crew: Two
• Length: 12.55 m (40 ft 3 ¼ in)
• Wingspan: 16.30 m (52 ft 5 ¼ in)
• Height: 3.60 m (11 ft 4 in)
• Wing area: 31.40 m² (333,68 ft²)
• Empty weight: 6,600 kg (14,550 lb)
• Max takeoff weight: 9,950 kg (21,935 lb)
• Powerplant: 2× Junkers Jumo 211N liquid-cooled V-12, 1,500 hp (1,120 kW) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: 615 km/h (404 mph)
• Range: 1,400 km (872 miles)
• Service ceiling: 9,500 m (31,200 ft)
• Rate of climb: 15 m/s (2,800 ft/min)
• Wing loading: kg/m² (lb/ft²)
• Power/mass: kW/kg (hp/lb)

Armament

• 2x 20 mm MG 151
• 2x 30 mm MK 108 nose-mounted cannons
• 2x 30 mm fuselage-mounted MK 108 cannons (Schräge Musik)

Sources:

www.wikipedia.com

www.warbirdsresourcegroup.com

http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/rys/

[Panzerknacker]

Me-509.




Although the Me 509 can trace its roots back to the Me 309, very little information has survived. The aircraft was to be of an all-metal construction. A new fuselage was designed, with the pressurized cockpit being moved well forward near the nose. The Daimler Benz 605B 12-cylinder engine was buried in the fuselage behind the cockpit, and drove a three-bladed, Me P 6 reversible-pitch propeller by an extension shaft which passed beneath the cockpit (similar to the US Bell P-39). The wing was tapered and had rounded wingtips, and was mounted low on the fuselage. Other Me 309 components were to be used, such as the tricycle landing gear, and the vertical tail assembly was similar to the one used for the Me 309 V1. Armament was not decided upon for the 509, but it is thought that two MG 131 13mm machine guns and two MG 151 20mm cannon were to be used. Although there were advantages of better cockpit visibility and relocation of the engine weight from the nose gear (important, since the Me 309's nose gear often collapsed), the Me 509 design and development was stopped when the Me 309 program was ended in mid-1943.
In April 1945, the Japanese completed a very similar project, the Yokosuka R2Y Keiun. Although no firm evidence exists, it is possible that the Me 309/509 information was licensed to the Japanese military, as were a number of other German designs (Bf 109, He 100, Me 163, Me 410, among others).
Messerschmitt Me 509 Dimensions (estimate) Span Length Height 11.27 m
37' 0"9.94 m
32' 7"3.98 m
13' 1"

www.luft46.com.

[Panzerknacker]

One of the weirdest, the Natter (snake)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M86j...related&search=

[Digger]

The Luftwaffe fought the entire WWII with basically the same aircraft it went to war. Of course the Fw-190 was the major introduction of a new type of fighter, and there were others which only had a minor impact on the air war.

Much has been made of the intrigues played out in the selection process of equipment granted production status and it is quite possible if certain types were introduced instead of those chosen the impact might have been significant.

So what if the He-100D was given priority over the Bf-109? Or if Milch had cast aside his prejudices and granted the highest priority to the He-219. Was the failed Ta-154 the right choice? If Heinkel was granted production status of the He-280 in late 1942, would this aircraft had maintained the quality lead the Luftwaffe enjoyed?

Was Goerings favouritism responsible for the non event of one of the most spectacular twin engine fighters ever designed, the Fw-187. Similarly the financial support given to the Messerschmitt company to develop the flawed Me-209/Me-309 could have been put to better use, ie the Dornier Do-335 and Fw-190D series.

Would any of these aircraft which had tremendous credentials to have entered service, had an impact on the war, or been a more viable alternative than the aircraft chosen ahead of them?

Regards to all,
Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

The Me-209/309 wasnt really good, Galland want to delete the development of those 2 and concentrate in the Fw-190A,D y Me-262 quite visionary.


Check this....

Adolph Galland's report regarding the Me 262

Berlin, 25 May 1943

Most esteemed Herr Generalfeldmarschall!
On Saturday, the 22nd of the month, I tested the ME 262 at Augsburg in the presence of Oberst Petersen and other persons from the Technical Office. I would have preferred to report personally to the Generalfeldmarschall and also elaborate on other matters, however I was so occupied after my visit to Sicily that there was simply no time. The Reichmarschall has ordered me to report today.

Concerning the Me 262, I beg to state the following:

1.) The aircraft represents an enormous leap forward, it would give us an unimaginable lead over the enemy if he adheres to the piston engine.
2.) In-flight handling of the airframe is impressive.
3.) The power plants are fully convincing, except during take-off and landing.
4.) The aircraft offers entirely new tactical prospects.
I beg to submit the following proposal: The Fw 190 D is under development, its performance should match the Me 209's in all respects. The performance of the two types, however, will not be superior to the enemy's models, particularly at altitude. The only progress seems to be in armament and higher speeds.
Conclusion: a) Me 209 be discontinued
b) Total fighter production to switch from the Fw 190 with BMW 801
to the Fw 190 with DB 603 and Jumo 213 respectively.
c) The construction and industrial capacities thus released to be
concentrated on the Me 262, with immediate effect.
I shall report immediately on my return.
Heil Hitler! Herr Generalfeldmarschall your most obedient servant.
Galland

More of this subject you can found in...

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3781

[Digger]

Galland's comments were largely ignored and funding was still being thrown into this useless programme in early 1944.

The only words that could describe the Me-209 is-it was a dog. Argubly the Me-309 was worse. These developments were a tremendous waste of resources and further convinced Erhard Milch, Professor Willy Messerschmitt was anything but a genius.

Regards to all,
Digger.

[Panzerknacker]

More pics of the failed Me-209 stufe II.