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Thread: Hero Alexander Gorovec

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Is not one German pilot claimed 13 victories in one sortie over USSR? And if I am not mistaken he also claimed that all of them fell into the lake after he shot them down.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    I found another text about the pilot and his last air fight: http://www.airwar.ru/history/aces/ac...s/gorovec.html

    I am not completely sure if it is trustworthy, but the general approach seems to be OK to me.

    First of all, the results of the air battle was recorded from the testimonies of the ground forces, not villagers. Which is in practise much more realistic and potentially done from multiple observation points.

    Secondly, the text elaborates on possible number of the planes shot by Gorovec.
    It claims the the German Ju-87 losses of StG 77 () on 6 July were 10 machines. 5 of them were lost in one area. But 4 out of these 5 were reported by Germans as shot by the AA artillery.
    At the same time, article sais that the Staff office of the 2nd Air Army reported destruction of 34 Ju-87 on the 6th of July. And that is without the 9 hit by Gorovec.

    If the the info about the German loses is genuine, then it is likely that 9 shot planes is a product of war time propaganda.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    good job Egorka.
    however the general battle has happend over village Zorinskie Dvory. And soviet ground forces didn't observed the crushing the Gorovec plane. Otherwise ther soviet troops should find the remains of pilot first.
    I believe, the Bf-109 , mentioned in article, actualy attackked the Gorovec's supproting aircraft and tied him into battle.Gorovec has stayed alone.
    IIRC shtukas top speed is 390km/h. I intentionaly took a lower value - 350km/h.
    La-5 speed was obviouly higher, but it has been said that German escort Fighters didn't shoot at him out og fear of hitting their own, i.e. Gorovec flew with app. The same speed A's shtukas for a ditation of the engagement.
    No mate.
    To attacke the Stuka from back with the same speed is pure ..suicide.
    Don't forget about stukas rear mashin-ganner.
    The attack might be more or less safe ONLY on the big speed and from the angle , not along parallel line to bomber's way.
    And Stuka is not the B-17, it can't fly along shortest line all the way.Stuka can manoeuvre pretty effective.The formation was lost after the first Gorovec attack , and GErmans have to restore the formation before to fly further.
    The speed of La-5 might be 100 km\h more then Stukas. Plus the Gorovec used the Vertical loop. Keep in mind also the Stukas were loaded by bombs and flew not too high over ground. I suppose 1-1,5 km.The La-5 was damn effective exactly on low altitude.
    All above make me to conclude that whole the battle, theoretically, might be observed from one place.
    The more interesting the germans datas of ONLY 10 lost U-87 that day.
    The soviets claims 34 U-87 the same dayI don't think the each was "confirmed" by the grounf forces.So we have to conclude- the soviet air command used the other testimonies for false claims.
    The unique of Gorovec story IMO is , that it was fully restored from the tesimonies of civils.
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-12-2009 at 12:22 AM.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I suppose it comes down partly to the angle of attack.

    That is, a higher altitude attack diving down on the Stukas and going through their level, which seems to be described in the Gorevec exploit at #1, exposes fewer bombers to attack than an attack coming in on a similar level to the bombers as the similar level attack doesn't require the same recovery time to get back into a firing position.

    #1
    Actualy mate. The formation of U-87 imply the vertical levels by small groups.
    Endeed the Stuka was vulnerable from attack of fighters.
    The Best Australian pilot -fighter Clive Caldwell claims to hit 5 Stukas within the few minutes over Libya . His story is very close to that was told by villagers in Kursk.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Caldwell
    I received radio warning that a large enemy formation was approaching from the North-West. No. 250 Squadron went into line astern behind me and as No. 112 Squadron engaged the escorting enemy fighters we attacked the JUs from the rear quarter. At 300 yards I opened fire with all my guns at the leader of one of the rear sections of three, allowing too little deflection, and hit No. 2 and No. 3, one of which burst into flames immediately, the other going down smoking and went into flames after losing about 1000 feet. I then attacked the leader of the rear section...from below and behind, opening fire with all guns at very close range. The enemy aircraft turned over and dived steeply... opened fire [at another Ju 87] again at close range, the enemy caught fire...and crashed in flames. I was able to pull up under the belly of one of the rear, holding the burst until very close range. The enemy... caught fire and dived into the ground.
    So as we might to see, it was possible to hit the number of U-87 within the ONE mission, moreover it was possible to hit few of them within the ONE attack.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    The Best Australian pilot -fighter Clive Caldwell claims to hit 5 Stukas within the few minutes over Libya .
    He was known by, but disliked, the nickname 'Killer' Caldwell.

    Like many other distinguished and not so distinguished Australian servicemen, he was sidelined by MacArthur when Mac was boosting his image in his island campaign after relying on Australian troops to do much of the grinding work in New Guinea to 1944, but leaving the Australians behind on various pretexts to allow Mac to have his American [i.e. MacArthur] victory in the Philippines etc.

    Unlike most other Australian servicemen, Caldwell openly revolted against the needless waste of Australian lives in backwaters while Mac added to his public image. Here is one version of Caldwell's 'mutiny'.

    The Morotai Mutiny

    by alf on 08 Oct 2005, 00:55

    The "Morotai Mutiny" is one of the skeletons in the closet in the Royal Australian Airforce History (RAAF).

    Eight of the RAAF most experienced pilots in April 1945 tendered their resignation from the service . They were all members of Number 80 & 81Wing (Spitfires) of the First Tactical Airforce based at Morotai.

    They were Group Captain Clive Caldwell (CO 80 Wing) ( Australia's highest ace 28 1/2 kills) Group Captain Wilf Arthur (CO 81 Wng) (another ace). Wing Commanders John Waddy and Bobby Gibbes (both aces) The other 4 Officers were highly experienced fliers, Wing Commander Ranger, and Squadron leaders Grace, Vanderfield and Harpham.

    The flash point for the mutiny was the arrest of Caldwell for running a booze racket allegedly using both RAAF and USAAAF aircraft, those charges were held over to post war.

    The real reason was the frustration felt by the Australian pilots to being deliberately side lined from the fighting by MacArthur and the feeling that the RAAF High Command was weak and did not represent those who fought.

    80 & 81 Wing had Spitfire Mark V111, a superb model of spitfire, it was not of the family of the upengined mark 1,2,5,9 series but a completely new aircraft. It was placed in an area where no japanese aircraft existed within its radius of operation at Morotai. There were no japanese aircraft there before the Wing moved there.

    The frustration was (and still is) that by that time of the war , Australian forces were being deliberately side lined by MacArthur. He wanted the Phillipines to be a completely US affair, Australian forces were left out of serious fighting and were suffering casualities for no reason in fighting cut off Japanese forces well behind the front. This frustration was felt especially keenly by the spitfire pilots, denied combat due to politics. The First Tactical Airforce came under operational command of the the United States 13th Airforce ( Kenney).

    In the months preceding the mutiny the two wings had lost 15 aircraft to enemy ground fire (and 11 men killed) in return they had destroyed twelve barges and 6 small motor vessels. Highly trained pilots were being frittered away for no reason.

    The mutiny shocked the RAAF and from its Head Quarters , one Air Commdore ( Cobby 26 kills in WW1) and two Group Captains (Gibson and Simms) were sacked almost immediately.

    The Chief of the Air Staff George Jones interviwed 7 of the 8 muntineers (not Caldwell) , Jones was disliked by the pilots as being out of touch and not representing them. His only answer to them as to why they were in a back water and not fighting was.that Curtain ( The then Australian Prime Minister) could not get MacArthur to allow Australian forces to fight in the Phillipines. General Kenney flew in all angry and demanding, he went quiet when the Australian pilots demanded to know why they were excluded from the fighting. ( Australians have a long proud history of not respecting rank merely because it is rank, the man has to earn their respect first)

    The upshot was Australian fighter pilots were deliberately excluded from air combat from 1944 and they resented it and demanded answers. i.e Caldwell did not fly against enemy aircraft from August 1943, what his score would have been no one can say but he (and the others) were deliberatley denied any opportuniteis from then on.

    Caldwell was eventually charged post war for his booze running, he was a milo mindbender ( Cacth 22 novel) but he also traded booze for equipment ( including getting a japanses zero from Clark Field for some bottles of whiskey).

    Most of the charges were trumped up and dropped, he had incurred the wrath of the RAAF High command earlier in the war when he wrote that the Australian built fighter the Boomerang was rubbish ( it never shot down an enemy aircraft and was used purely for ground attack). The Chief of the Air Staff ( Jones ) had marked his file in 1942 " This Officer is an Empire air Trainee and as such is considered t be already sufficently decorated and is to receive no more regardless of future service"


    He left the airforce in 1946 as a disgraced Flight Lieutenant. He was the highest scoring allied pilot in the Western Desert flying Tomahawks and Kittyhawks and he fought against the German aces there ( he shot down 10 ME 109's there) , his dismissal was a disgraceful episode in RAAF history.

    The treatment of Australian forces in the South West Pacific post 1943 is also a disgrace, both for MacArthur and also for the then Australian Governemnet. Thats why the mutiny was hushed up.

    My main reference is Killer Caldwell by Jeffrey Watson, the first biography of him ever writen ( released this year 2005)
    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=87470

    Caldwell was unusual in being awarded a Polish medal without serving in Europe, and being permitted by special dispensation of General Sikorski to wear the Polish pilot's badge. http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-heroes/caldwell.htm
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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