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Thread: Hero Alexander Gorovec

  1. #1
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    Default Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Comrides, i found out an interesting article in russian Wiki about one soviet fighter pilot who shoted 9 Stukas for single battle.
    Hero of the Soviet Union Alexander Gorovec

    The Russian Wiki claims to him belongs the unique record of shoting down the enemy aircraft during the one battle.
    The background is next.
    In july 6 1943 he flew his La-5fn on a back way to base, together with 7 soviet fighters. they got a task to cover soviet troops during the Kursk Battle from Germans bombers.Suddenly the leutenant Golovec has seen the big group of germans Stukas U-87 , right under his plane.Nearly 20 bombers with escort of four fighters FW-190.
    Golovec shout to radio to their mates he began the attack. However the radio was broken, and their comrides just lost him, flying to base.Alexander ALONE dive down and shoot the first headed Stukas.he open fire from close distance.Then he made the vertical loop and catch in sign the other one.
    The La-5 fn was a newest soviet fighter that time, armed by two 20-mm SVAK gun. Enough effective to cut off the wing of aircraft. The one after one he shoted down the 8 stukas,the few U-87 blowed up right in air, until his shells were over.
    The escort Fokkers truing to attack him, but becouse Golovec all time operated too close to Stukas, they didn't shoot , fearing to hit the german plane.
    But that madman didn't think go out of battle. He drop his fighter right to the U-87 tail , and cutt off the plane by the... propeller.
    Then he trued to land damaged La-5( the plane particulary lost the control-ability) right on the field, but the FW now got the chance to attack him. He was hited right near the land and crushed.
    Leutenant Alexander Gorovec died.
    FOr a long time he was considere as "missed" in his regiment. However the inhabitans of village, near wich the battle happens, told the story about unknow soviet fighter , who shoted down 8 and ramming the one Germans bombers.He crushed just right the collective farm field , next to village.In 1957 the groupe of activist found out the plase of catastrophe, and dig out the plane with remains of pilot.
    The documents were in relatively good condition , thus the world has known the name of the missed hero.
    Now there is a big monument , devoited to Alexander, right in road Moscow-Simferopol.
    I have and question.
    Does somebody have the information about German planes lost the day 6 jule of 1943?
    I know the Luftwaffe waged a statistic of any lost plane,at least untill last mounth of war, when any statistic seems to be very problematic due to total chaos.
    And more, does somebody know the other one pilot who shoted down more or the same figures of enemy aircraft per battle in ww2?
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-06-2009 at 03:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Ummm... hate to sound like a skeptic, but if he died in this particular battle and his squadron mates had already lost him, how do we know this actually happened? If nothing else, that alone is probably quite an interesting story...
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    Ummm... hate to sound like a skeptic, but if he died in this particular battle and his squadron mates had already lost him, how do we know this actually happened?
    From this part of Chevan's post:

    FOr a long time he was considere as "missed" in his regiment. However the inhabitans of village, near wich the battle happens, told the story about unknow soviet fighter , who shoted down 8 and ramming the one Germans bombers.He crushed just right the collective farm field , next to village.In 1957 the groupe of activist found out the plase of catastrophe, and dig out the plane with remains of pilot.
    The documents were in relatively good condition , thus the world has known the name of the missed hero.
    I think the reference to 'missed" might have been intended by Chevan to refer to Gorovec "missing in action" with his post-battle fate unknown to his comrades, as was common for pilots on all sides, rather than going missing from his comrades at the time. Chevan may wish to clarify this.
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    And more, does somebody know the other one pilot who shoted down more or the same figures of enemy aircraft per battle in ww2?
    Apparently Erich Rudorffer got thirteen in one mission, although it's not clear if it was one battle.

    Gavril Vlasovič Didenko got thirteen in one day, although only nine in one battle, a few days before Gorovec.

    Taken from this list, which shows some pilots with even higher numbers for one day: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/avi...stics-599.html
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 10-06-2009 at 06:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Gavril Vlasovič Didenko got thirteen in one day, although only nine in one battle, a few days before Gorovec.
    Yes mate.
    Actualy another hero of SU Didenko has shoted down 4 personaly and 9 in group 2 jule 1943.
    But he fley 6 missions that day.
    http://www.peoples.ru/military/aviat...vriil_didenko/
    The Alexander Gorovec has shoted 9 in ONE mission , attacking the big group of enemy aircraft quite ALONE.This is unique situation in all soviet aviation.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    Ummm... hate to sound like a skeptic, but if he died in this particular battle and his squadron mates had already lost him, how do we know this actually happened?
    Me too.
    Actualy the pilots had the tend to overestimate its victories. It happend too often during the ww2.
    However the unique of Gorovec situation was that he didn't report the resault the battle. The story was restored from testimonies of civils. Besides it was uncovered in 1957 when the war-time hurrey-propogandic histeria was already over.
    Though i think we shall to check out the EGrmans records that day of missed shtukas for clearness..
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-07-2009 at 06:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Here is i found the testimonies of that battle
    .бой был недалеко от деревни Зоринские Дворы, то свидетелями были , например, Сережа Сергеев (9 лет), его мать Наталья Федосеевна и их односельчанка Прасковья Николаевна Лобачева. Они насчитали 20 вражеских бомбардировщиков. Из них наш летчик сбил 9 самолетов. Когда появились 4 немецких истребителя, то, видимо, один из них получил повреждение, но увернулся. Вскоре самолет Горовца был сбит.
    В Зоринских Дворах никто, конечно, не знал имени летчика-истребителя. Сергея позднее призвали на службу в ТОФ, где его рассказом заинтересовался зам. командира корабля и сказал, что летчик - настоящий герой, и хорошо бы выяснить его имя. После этого, определив по памяти приблизительное место падения и взрыва самолета, в 1957 году Сергею и его друзьям Александру Лобачеву и Анатолию Черкасову удалось откопать на глубине одного метра обломки самолета (хвостовое оперение, шасси и пушку). Самолет лежал вниз кабиной. В кабине обнаружили останки летчика, орден Красного Знамени, карту, выцветшую фотографию, полевую сберкнижку, борт-журнал, удостоверение личности, письма. Многие документы уже нельзя было прочесть. В нагрудном кармане истлевшей гимнастерки обнаружился партбилет, фотография выцвела, но номер билета и запись, сделанную черной тушью, можно было прочитать: № 2682000 Горовец Александр Константинович...

    The dogfight occured near the village Zorinskie Dvory. The witnesses Seregha Sergeev (9 year old) his mother Natalia Fedoseevna and woman Praskovia Lobacheva.They alltogether have counted the 20 enemy bombers.Our fighter shoted dowm 9 of them.When the 4 german fighter has attacked him, one probably was damaged by Russians, but survived. Soon the soviet fighter was shot down.
    Nobody know the name of soviet ace.When Sergey was 18 , he was recruited to the SOviet fleet, where he has told the story to his ship's commander. The officer was interesting of story and advised to learn the name of heroe in place of his death.After the demobilisation in 1957,Sergey together with two mates, has found the place when La-5 was crushed and dig out the metall details of plan, including the 20-mm gun. The remains of pilot were also there.They found out the party-membership card number 2682000 , Gorovec Alexander Konstantinovich.There were also the Order of Red banner, by which pilot was awarded.
    Very intersting IMO. The boy has finaly found the plane thrue 14 years.
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-07-2009 at 07:18 AM.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    How is he defining German planes "shot down"? If pilots are notorious for overestimating kill claims (and sincerely believing that they did indeed shoot those aircraft down), then one would assume that a ground observer would be little better. While they are under less immediate pressure, they have a restricted field of view, are further away, and in this case he was only 9 as well so would have a somewhat limited understanding of what was going on.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    How is he defining German planes "shot down"? If pilots are notorious for overestimating kill claims (and sincerely believing that they did indeed shoot those aircraft down), then one would assume that a ground observer would be little better. While they are under less immediate pressure, they have a restricted field of view, are further away, and in this case he was only 9 as well so would have a somewhat limited understanding of what was going on.
    Sure the ground observers has a limited area to see what is going on endeed.The witnesses insisted the U-87 were actualy damaged and crushed at the the land.
    The red amry standarts imply that plane is "shoted down" ONLY if there was the confirmed to be crushed in air or on the land. The testimonies of pilot never enought for victory.Usially the role of "ground observers" played the soviet infantry, which was able to confirm or vise verse to denied the pilots claims.But i know the cases when the usial civils were witnesses of air battle. The Air command took their testimonies for post-mission report of pilots.
    Honestly i don't exactly know how might the awerage woman to determine - were aircraft shoted down or not. But witnesses claims the few U-87 blowed up right on the air, the others had falled on the ground.
    But anyway we need to check the german datas to be sure.
    P.S. do you know the case over GB when civils were winesses of the air battle?
    I 'm sure the entire London saw the hot dogfights during the Battle for britain. Many people should see the crushed german and british planes.

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    I have a slight doubdt.
    You see, if the number of shot shtukas was recovered from the testimonies of the civilians of one village, then it can not be true.
    It takes time to shoot 9 planes. During this time the planes would cover a long distance. If we take a Shutka's speed to be 350km/h then in 10 minutes it covers 58km. I doubt that was possible to monitor the respective air battle as well as count airplanes in the air along all that 58km distance.
    Do you get my point?

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    I have a slight doubdt.
    You see, if the number of shot shtukas was recovered from the testimonies of the civilians of one village, then it can not be true.
    It takes time to shoot 9 planes. During this time the planes would cover a long distance. If we take a Shutka's speed to be 350km/h then in 10 minutes it covers 58km. I doubt that was possible to monitor the respective air battle as well as count airplanes in the air along all that 58km distance.
    That assumes that the planes were flying a straight line for the duration of the battle, which would result in the pursued plane being shot down only if the pursuing plane had greater speed to catch it in ten minutes.

    Aerial battles were more usually fought in a series of turns, rolls, dives and climbs in various directions as the combatants tried to turn inside each other and gain or lose height, which confined the battle to a much smaller area than that possible with a simple linear flight.

    This is exemplified in some Battle of Britain ground footage which enabled people on the ground to watch sustained aerial battles.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 10-08-2009 at 05:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Yes, except that he attacked shtukas which, to my understanding, were on the bomning mission. In any case I presume that the shtukas were keeping formation even if they flew in a zigzag manner. Therefor I don't Think shtukas manuvering was too much different from a straight Line.
    So I still think that the mentioned Air battle happened across a long distance.

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    Yes, except that he attacked shtukas which, to my understanding, were on the bomning mission. In any case I presume that the shtukas were keeping formation even if they flew in a zigzag manner. Therefor I don't Think shtukas manuvering was too much different from a straight Line.
    So I still think that the mentioned Air battle happened across a long distance.
    Then the critical question is what were the relative speeds of Gorovec's plane and the Stukas, in that engagement rather than their relative top speeds?

    And at what point of the mission were the Stukas, i.e. still at least 58 km away from their target or closer?
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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    IIRC shtukas top speed is 390km/h. I intentionaly took a lower value - 350km/h.
    La-5 speed was obviouly higher, but it has been said that German escort Fighters didn't shoot at him out og fear of hitting their own, i.e. Gorovec flew with app. The same speed A's shtukas for a ditation of the engagement.

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    Default Re: Hero Alexander Gorovec

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    IIRC shtukas top speed is 390km/h. I intentionaly took a lower value - 350km/h.
    La-5 speed was obviouly higher, but it has been said that German escort Fighters didn't shoot at him out og fear of hitting their own, i.e. Gorovec flew with app. The same speed A's shtukas for a ditation of the engagement.
    I suppose it comes down partly to the angle of attack.

    That is, a higher altitude attack diving down on the Stukas and going through their level, which seems to be described in the Gorevec exploit at #1, exposes fewer bombers to attack than an attack coming in on a similar level to the bombers as the similar level attack doesn't require the same recovery time to get back into a firing position.

    #1
    Alexander ALONE dive down and shoot the first headed Stukas.he open fire from close distance.Then he made the vertical loop and catch in sign the other one.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 10-08-2009 at 08:15 AM.
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