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Thread: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy View Post
    We got the two basic numbers: 100000 raped women in the greater Berlin area and 2 million German women in total. Again, these numbers mean raped women, not single rapes. Most women had to endure several abuses. German sources call these minimum numbers which are probably exceeded.
    Egorka, in your original post (and on the photo site) you called Sander/Johr a reliable source in contrary to Beevor and German Dr. Gerhard Reichling (the guy who examined the documents of these two Berlin hospitals).
    Actually Sander/Johr got their numbers from Reichling's investigations. Beevor borrowed the numbers from Sander/Johr.
    As we mentioned before it is impossible to get exact numbers since most culprits and victims weren't anxious to tell. Dr. Reichling uses estimates and extrapolations - if we like that or not, these are approved measures of historic research and sometimes the only ones.
    I'm going to search the sources now and try to make Reichling's calculations lucid...
    Right, right.
    I am just in the middle of writing the next bit of info about how Johr came to her numbers. Just give me half an hour or something.

    I know about exactly the same source chain: Beevor - Johr - Reichling.

    Right now I am writing on Johr. But I also have info on Reichling's numbers and will present it here later.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Now I will try to present what I know about the origins of the number of rape victims "2 Million women in Gemrany".

    Important note:
    this part is based on this Russian blog entry http://labas.livejournal.com/771672.html
    Though I am in accord with the reasoning of the author, I unfortunately can not verify myself his factual side. This is because he uses a lot of German source which I can not read my self due lack of the German language skills. Therefor I can not wouch 100% for the following, but I am still rather confident that the following doesn't contain deliberate falacies.


    A.Beevor in his "Berlin The Downfall 1945" announced the number "2 Millions". I repeat again that Beevor didn't calculate it himself. Indeed the whole paragraph where he mentiones both "100 thousands of rape victims in Berlin" and "2 Mill. raped German women" is refferenced by the page 54 and 59 of the book "BeFreier und Befreite" (Libirators and Liberated) by by Helke Sander and Barbara Johr.

    If we look into "BeFreier und Befreite" we find a dedicated chapter/article by Barbara Johr called "Events in numbers" (pp.46-73) where the author calculates the total number of rape in Germany 1945. Their result is the well known 2 million victims. So how did they do that? Lets see together.


    Barbara Johr's method. About 110.000 victims in Berlin:
    The number of victims in Berlin is based on the statistics of just one clinique, namely "Empress Augusta Vicktoria" childrens clinique (Kaiserin Auguste Victoria Haus - Kinderklinik).

    Here is the scan of the table from the book.

    From this table we see that in 1945 there were born 12 (or 13, including a case marked as questionable) children whose farthers were "Russians". That is 12 (or 13) out of total 237 children who were monitored in the clinique.
    For 1946 the number are as following: 20 (or 21) children were with "Russian" fathers out of total 567 monitored.

    On the basis of this table, Johr postulates that in case of a rape pregnancy followed in 20% of cases, i.e. 118 out of 514.

    After this Johr does the following calculation:
    1. The official Berlin statistics states 23124 newborn in the period of Sept.1945 - Aug.1946. According to "Empress Augusta Vicktoria" stats the farthers of 5% of these babies were "Russians". 5% of 23124 = 1156.
    2. 90% pregnant victims got abortion. This means 1156*10 = 11560 women victims.
    3. After a rape the chances for a victim to get pregnant were 20%, hense there were raped 11560*5 = 57800 women.
    4. At that time Berlin housed 600 thousands women of fertile age (18-45 y.o.). Then 57800/600000 = 9,5% of them were raped.
    5. Appart from women mentioned in point 4, there were also women of other ages. Girls of 14-18 y.o. and older then 45 y.o. Their total number was 800 thousands women. If we assume that 9,5% of them were raped too, this gives us 73300 additional victims.
    6. Thus out of 1,4 Million female population of Berlin between Spring and Autumn 1945 were raped from 94450 to 131100 women. In average 110000+ victims.

    Here are these 6 points scanned from the book.


    Criticism of Johr's calculation:
    I. The whole calculation is based on the data of only one clinique - "Kaiserin Auguste Victoria Haus". It is immpossible to oversee that at the base of the number of thousands and thousands (110.000) victims lais practicaly single instances. F.ex. if we account 9 children in "questionable cases" as "Russian" then there will be 22 "Russian children" out of 237 (9%). This will at the end increase the Berlin number from 110K to 198K in one go.

    II. In the first table the line "Father Russian" and "Father Russian/rape" are two different ones. But Johr adds them up together. This is discussible. Though the reason is probably Johr understands term "rape" is it's most widest form. Dating Soviet officer for benefits - rape.
    Anyway, according the words in the clinique documentation the number of children born after rape were 5+4 = 9 out of 804 (1945 and 1946), i.e. 1,1%.
    If we take this number as a base then the total Berlin number suddenly would drop from 110K to 24K in just one go.
    Johr's logic applied without consideration whoud f.ex. give us that other Allied forces only in 1945 raped 50.000 women (5+1+1+4+2 out of 567 gives us 2,2% victims).

    III. Johr statement tat 90% of pregnancies after rape were terminated by abortion are not backed up by anything except that people say there were "many" abortions. Johr doesn't explain why many in this case means 90%.
    In th mean while the data for the women clinique in Charite, uqoted by Johr, showes 40 abortion out of 118, i.e. 34%. Not 90%. So if we change just this, then the totsal Berlin number goes from 110K to 16K victims.

    IV. Undoubtably the peak of the raping occured in April-MAy 1945. Then one could expect peak of births of "Russian children" in Jan-Feb 1946. But according to the data for "Kaiserin Auguste Victoria Haus" there were born more "Russian children" in 1945 than in 1946. How can it be? If these are the children of refugees, then they should not be accounted in Berlin statistics.

    V. The logic of Johr's point 5 is plain and simple and can be shortly expressed: They raped everyone from 8 to 80. Such logic beyond good and eveil and deffinately beyond impartial research.

    In my opinion such approach where one can play with number the way he wants and where single cases lead to result change by many-many thousands is not the right one.
    Any comments and input are welcome!

    To be continued: about the total number of victims in Germany, i.e. 2 Millions.
    Last edited by Egorka; 10-18-2009 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Important note:
    this part is based on this Russian blog entry http://labas.livejournal.com/772585.html
    Though I am in accord with the reasoning of the author, I unfortunately can not verify myself his factual side. This is because he uses a lot of German source which I can not read my self due lack of the German language skills. Therefore I can not vouch 100% for the following, but I am still rather confident that the following doesn't contain deliberate fallacies.


    On the total number of rape victims in Germany, i.e. 2 Million women.
    In the book "BeFreier und Befreite" B.Johr writes the following (my translation from Russian, i.e. quote may not be 100% exact):
    B.Johr: "Doctor Gerhard Reichling, a statistician and an expert on the population losses, was the first one who estimated the total number of women raped on the territories of Soviet occupation, in the German Eastern territories and during the exodus. For several decades he was professionally involved in international work on the issues of German refugees and their reintegration and their war losses. He is not concerned with politics ... as a statistician he comments his work as following: «Statisticians have to be neutral... It is scientifically correct to announce a lower estimate.» His work is based on comprehensive analysis of the German as well as international sources. Because the sources he used are fragmentary he does not claim more then just publication of order of magnitude."
    Reichling's estimates are presented by Johr in the table.

    Here is the scan of the table with Reichling's data from the book.

    If we look through this table we will find the following data on the rape victims.
    • 1 Million German women-refugees survivors from East Prussia, East Pomerania, East Brandenburg and Silesia were raped by Soviet soldiers, i.e. 20,8% of 4.805.000 women.
    • 220 thousand of German women raped among those who remained on the territories outside of USSR, i.e. 16,2% of 1.360.000 women.
    • 180 thousand German women were raped and later perished for some reason. (out of total 766.00 women)
    • 500 thousand women raped in the Soviet occupation zone and in Berlin, i.e. 7,5% of total 6.669.000 women.
    • 100 thousand of women raped in Berlin, i.e. 6,7% of total 1.495.600 women.

    Summing up all these numbers gives us: 1.000.000 + 220.000 + 180.000 + 500.000 + 100.000 = 2.000.000 women. Reichling also states that there were born 292.000 children as the result of rape.

    The comments on this table are fery few. And Johr presents no information what so ever about the sources that Reighling used to make this data table. In the commentary section no sources are named either, instead it literally says: "At present time Dr.Reighling is a director of the international society for the research on refugees issues. He is the author of numerous writings (see his bibliography)."

    From the Reighling's bibliography we can see that he wrote 3 statistical works on the topic of refugees: in 1949, in 1958, and the final one, in 2 volume «Die Deutschen Vertriebenen in Zahlen» («German refugees in numbers») in 1986-89.
    These 2 volumes consists of a large number of main statistical tables as well as even more secondary data tables. All of that is meticulously commented and referenced. The information is shedding light on all possible aspects of refugee's lives: religion demographics, number of killed refugees, number of refugees working for German state, number of refugees having own enterprise and so on. One can also find in the Reichling's book some data that is presented on Johr's table inside frames. F.ex. 11.926.000 refugees settled in the Western occupation zone and 1.640.000 refugees perished as the result of expulsion. These are exactly the same in both books. Some others are sort of the same (Total German population on East affected by war: Johr 18.640.000 versus Reichling 18.140.000 (v.1, p.30)).

    But rape is not at all discussed the Reichling's 2 volume book. In fact, the word "rape" is not to be found on the pages. In the Reighling's 2 volume book every table is followed by long (15 - 20 lines of small text) list of references and data source, which served as a base for a given statistical table. In the Johr's article this source list is absent. Johr only writes that the sources are German and international and sporadic (lückenhaft). Because Dr. R.Reichling has unfortunately already passed away, chances that these sources would be made public are very slim.


    Criticism of the result:
    Any statistical result has to be made available together with the list of data sources which served as its base. Concealing the list of sources makes interpretation of the result impossible and the results themselves untrustworthy.

    Barbara Johr does not see an apparent contradiction in the data she presents on 2 adjacent pages. According to her in Berlin 1945-46 were born about 1 thousand "Russian children", whereas according to Reichling in whole Germany 232 thousand "Russian children". That is 1 thousand in the capital city and 291 thousand outside of it? That is nonsense! Because Johr tries to use at least some kind of source to back up her result (Empress Augusta Vicktoria clinic), then it would seem logical to think that Reichlings data is exaggerated, and very much so.

    There is another vivid contradiction that is overseen by Johr. She postulates that in Berlin 90% women got abortion and that chances to get pregnant after rape were 20%. Using these 2 coefficients Johr then acheives number of more than 110.000 victims for Berlin.
    The problem is that with these coefficients 2 Million raped women would give birth to only 40.000 children, not 292.000. Or other way around: 292K bourn after rape children would mean that 14,6 Million women were raped!?!?!? Johr does not notice that.


    Summary:
    Introduced by R.Reighling, retranslated by B.Johr and later A.Beevor number of rape victims in Germany is not backed up any evidence, and based on unknown sources. The fact that their numeric result is being widely spread by media is either ill intent or a historical anecdote.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    On the other hand, I think you misunderstood the meaning of the part that you quoted in your post. The value 905 rapes per Million men per year IS the expected PEACE time level rape crime rate in population of Russian Federation. This whould the lower estimate. This means that in the war time I can only expect this value to rise. Since we can not for sure calculate the value for this increase, we can instead present the result as a table where there is only ONE variable. This make analisys of the result much more simple.
    It can't make the analisys simple, Igor.
    The table endeed just point the some abstract coef which is supposed for war time- 30, 50 or 300.
    It might be 3000 and you can't know for sure.
    I suggest you the another simple statistical method.
    As it is pointed by flamethrowerguy, the Gerhard Reichling claims there were about 100 000 of victims in Berlin and 2 mln on all the rest East GErmany.
    Lets just culculate the simple coef of Rad army rapings of population that suffer on soviet zone for period 1945-1946.
    Say we know for sure the 1945 population of BErlin was 3 mln of civils.
    coeff of rapings = 100 thousands/3mln=0,033
    This might be an abstract coeff that indicates what percentage of local population which were raped by red army . We might to assume this value is equal for Berlin and for rest of Eastern zone of Germany. COz hardly the Red Army behaved differ there
    So lets take this value as constant.
    Now if we take the figure 2 million of raped all over East GErmany- lets culculate the supposed population of Eatstern zone under Red Army controll = 2 mln/0,033 = 60 mln.
    Opps!!!
    There were NEVER 60 mln of civil population in Pomerania, Silesia and Berlin district( even if you add the Austria).
    Barbara Johr does not see an apparent contradiction in the data she presents on 2 adjacent pages. According to her in Berlin 1945-46 were born about 1 thousand "Russian children", whereas according to Reichling in whole Germany 232 thousand "Russian children". That is 1 thousand in the capital city and 291 thousand outside of it?
    That's exactly what i mean.
    If do admit the datas of Berlin hospitals you never will get the 2 mln in rest GErmany.
    If we look through this table we will find the following data on the rape victims.
    1 Million German women-refugees survivors from East Prussia, East Pomerania, East Brandenburg and Silesia were raped by Soviet soldiers, i.e. 20,8% of 4.805.000 women.
    Stop here.
    Firstly. Where has they got the 4.8 mln of GErman population in 45?This mean the total population of those zone up to 8 mln.It was probably pre-war datas.
    Let me introduce the little interesting dialog that had occured in Potsdam conference of allies.

    http://grachev62.narod.ru/stalin/confer/chapt27.htm
    Черчилль. Еще одно замечание – относительно заявления генералиссимуса Сталина о том, что все немцы покинули эти районы. Имеются другие данные, которые говорят о том, что там все-таки осталось 2–2,5 миллиона немцев. Конечно, эти цифры следовало бы еще проверить.

    Сталин. Я согласен, что некоторые затруднения со снабжением Германии имеются, но главными виновниками этих затруднений являются сами немцы. Война привела к тому, что из этих 8 миллионов немцев там никого почти не осталось. Возьмите Штеттин; там было 500 тысяч населения, а когда мы вошли в Штеттин, там осталось всего 8 тысяч.

    В Восточной Пруссии немцы поступили так: большая часть ушла на запад, в тыл к своим войскам, другая часть ушла в район Кенигсберга, к русским. Когда мы пришли в ту зону, которая предназначалась для приращения польской территории, там из немцев никого не осталось, остались одни поляки. Вот как обернулось дело.

    В зоне между Одером и Вислой немцы бросили свои поля, поля обрабатываются и убираются поляками. Едва ли поляки согласятся отдать немцам то, что они обработали. Вот какое положение создалось в этих районах.

    -------------------------------------
    Churchill:
    we have the datas- there should be 2-2,5 mln of germans in areas, occuped by Red Army and that should be handed to Poland( East Prussia, Pomerania and Upper Silezia- my comments) Sure it might be unreliable, it need to be the checked.
    Stalin:
    There is no germans there now. From 8 mln of pre-war population the alsmot all are fled.
    Take a look at Stettin. There were 500 000 of population , when we had come there- the only 8 000 remained.
    In Eastern Prussia the majority of GErman population fled with retreating german army, the big part fled to Kenigsberg to soviet zone.( why? probablty they trying to avoid the "polish revenge") When we came there, there were almost no germans. All had gone.
    In zone between Vistula and Oder the germans leaved their farms, poles has come and work now there.
    I do not bet the all the germans has fled out of there, but the fact is a fact- since 1944 the local population leaved those ares. We know for sure - THERE WERE never 8 mln in pomerania, silezia and Prussia in 1945.
    Becose those areas has survived the demographic catastrophe since at least end of 1944. The millions has fled from there .The millions were forcedly deported lated( BTW the first deportations has began in march 1945)
    The another serious objection against that phony statistic is that the population of Silezia and Pomerania was treated bad and soon deported by ...polish authorities.
    Poles took active participation in violence toward the former GErmans civils.Raping and murdering including.
    So hardly some one might be in point to hang all the 1 mln of supposed female victims exclusively on red army. This is quite wrong.
    P.S. the 1 mln of raped in Prussia is pretty phantastic figure? that can't be supproted by any real statistic.
    Also the intentions to hang all the commited crimes on Red Army is a false on definition.The Eastern GErman population suffered much in POland and Chehoslovackia as well.
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-19-2009 at 01:49 AM.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post

    II. In the first table the line "Father Russian" and "Father Russian/rape" are two different ones. But Johr adds them up together. This is discussible. Though the reason is probably Johr understands term "rape" is it's most widest form. Dating Soviet officer for benefits - rape.
    Actualy, how can we separate the direct acts of raping and say, the forced prostitution?
    Indeed there were widespread a form of forced prostitution.And hardly they used a conceptratives. Woman needs for for their children, many did it voluntary.The post-war Berlin was a hell where people suffer from lack of food.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    It can't make the analisys simple, Igor.
    Yes, it does, Chevan.
    This technique is called Sensitivity analysis.

    The table endeed just point the some abstract coef which is supposed for war time- 30, 50 or 300.
    It might be 3000 and you can't know for sure.
    Exactly. I can not be sure about the value of this increase in war time. That is why the result is not a single number, but a matrix. This is completely sound scientific approach. It is a sort of sanity checker.

    I nowhere claimed that my method would give answer. I only said it would give a sefference scale for further analysis.


    Firstly. Where has they got the 4.8 mln of GErman population in 45?This mean the total population of those zone up to 8 mln. It was probably pre-war datas.
    According to Reichling (see table) in 1950 there remained 14.296.000 Germans in the Soviet Occupied Zone (6.669.000 women, 4.749.000 men, 2.878.000 children). Reichling postulates that 500.000 of these women were raped.

    Actualy, how can we separate the direct acts of raping and say, the forced prostitution?
    Indeed there were widespread a form of forced prostitution.And hardly they used a conceptratives. Woman needs for for their children, many did it voluntary.The post-war Berlin was a hell where people suffer from lack of food.
    Yes, forced prostitution is no good thing... But is not completely black and white issue either. That is why I wrote that it has to be done with sertain consideration. Else according to the documentation used by Johr other allies raped 50.000 women in Berlin in 1945. Is that reasonable to think?

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    So how many German women were raped? And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too? Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy View Post

    That's right, there were break-ups, divorces and it even happened that a homecoming father forced his raped teenage daughter to suicide.
    It's not at all.
    i found out an worthwhile report of NKVD officer about mass "suicide" of germans families.
    The original source in russian , so i try to translate.
    Донесение начальника 7-го отдела политуправления 2-го Белорусского фронта начальнику 7-го управления Главного Политического Управления РККА об умерврщлении фашистом граждан немецкой национальности

    2 апреля 1945 г.{83}

    При прочесывании населенных пунктов в районе огневых позиций 94-го гаубичного артполка 23-й артдивизии 12 марта 1945 года вблизи деревни Зюбитц (22 км от города Данцига) в лесу в отдельном сарае были обнаружены три немецкие семьи из деревни Зюбитц, всего 16 человек, а именно:

    1. Бюхенен Фрида (возраст не установлен)
    2. Губерт — ее сын, 7 лет
    3. Гейнц — ее сын, 6 лет
    4. Морбин — ее сын, 5 лет
    5. Гарри — ее сын, 2,5 года
    6. Шварц Эрвин — 37 лет
    7. Шварц Эрика, его жена — 39 лет
    8. Петер — их сын, 6 лет
    9. Карин — их сын, 5 лет
    10. Вольфган — их сын, 2,5 года
    11. Лере Берта — 39 лет
    12. Бруно — ее сын, 7 лет
    13. Герберт — ее сын, 14 лет
    14. Линиял — 40 лет
    15. Гизелла — ее дочь, 15 лет
    16. Эйверелах Эмген — ее племянница, 2 года.
    Из них Лере Бруно, Лере Герберт, Линиял Гизелла и Эйверелах Эмген оказались мертвыми, т. к. у них было перерезано горло, а у остальных 12 человек вскрыты вены на обеих руках, но в момент обнаружения они еще были живы.

    При оказании им медицинской помощи они отказывались от помощи, заявляя: «Лучше умереть, чем жить с русскими».

    К вечеру 12 марта 1945 года умерло 11 человек: семеро детей и четыре женщины.

    Расследованием установлено, что убийство указанных лиц было совершено Шварцем Эрвином, 1908 года рождения, уроженцем дер. Зюбитц, по национальности [212] немцем, членом партии национал-социалистов с 1933 г., образование 7 классов, женат, работал авиамотористом на аэродроме в г. Гдыня.

    На допросе он показал: «К приходу русских войск по месту моего проживания я увидел, что все имущество потеряно и, будучи убежден в своей фашистской партии, начал действовать, чем мог, против русских войск. Поэтому 12 марта 1945 года своей жене и троим детям вскрыл вены на руках с целью уничтожения их. После убийства своей семьи я предложил [то же самое сделать] соседям, которые привели свои семьи в сарай и при моей помощи вскрыли вены, а затем я вскрыл вены и себе. Убийство 15 человек я совершил с целью, чтобы остальные немцы узнали и распространили слух, что все это совершили русские солдаты».

    Оставшиеся в живых женщины подтвердили, что на умерщвление они согласились в результате агитации Шварца Эрвина, который и произвел вскрытие вен лезвием безопасной бритвы, а также перерезал горло 4 человекам.

    Одна из женщин, оставшаяся в живых, Фрида Бохенен, показала, что она не желала резать руки, но когда Шварц ей насильно вскрыл вены, она потеряла сознание и не видела, что делалось с ее детьми.

    Далее Фрида Бохенен показала, что Шварц ей говорил о том, что когда придет Красная Армия, то будет насиловать и угонять немцев в Сибирь, поэтому жить дальше нет никакого смысла.

    В распространении провокационной агитации Шварцу активно помогала Лере Берта, которая после вскрытия вен умерла.

    В тот же день в районе деревни Зюбитц в лесу в шалаше была обнаружена женщина-немка Лере Маргарита — 18 лет, со следами удушения на шее. Лере заявила, что ее душили красноармейцы и пытались изнасиловать.

    В отношении этого заявления Лере Бохенен Фрида показала, что Лере Маргарита является дочерью Берты Лере и следы удушения у нее являются следствием ее попытки к самоубийству.

    Несмотря на оказанную медицинскую помощь, Шварц Эрвин 15 марта 1945 года умер от потери крови, также умерли и все остальные лица, обнаруженные в сарае.

    Начальник 7-го отдела ПУ 2 БФ подполковник Забаштанский
    ___________________________________________

    Report of chief of 7-department ( political) of 2-nd belorussian front to chief of Political department of RKKA.
    2 april 1945.

    During the comb of wood near the position of 94-artillery howitzer regiment of 23 artillery division 12 march of 1945 near the village Zubitz( 22 km from city Dancig) in barn has been found the 3 german families , 16 persons , namely
    -Buhenen Frida( age unknown)
    -Gubert, her son ( age 7)
    -Heinz, her son( age 6),
    -Morbin , her son( age 5)
    -Harry, her son( age 2,5 years)
    -Shwartz Ervin ( age 37)
    -Shwartz Ericka, his wife ( age 39)
    -Peter, their son( age 6)
    -Karin , their son( age 5)
    -Wolfgan, their son ( age2,5)
    -Lere Berga( age 39)
    -Bruno,her son( age 7)
    -Gerbert,herson( age 14)
    -Liniajl , (age 40)
    -Gizella, her daughter ( age 15)
    -Awerelah Emgen ( age 2 )
    four were dead, the rest 12 were found with cutted viens on both hands, but their were still alive.
    They refused the first medical aid, shouting" better death , then live with Russians".
    To the evening 12 march has died 11 - 4 woman and 7 children.
    The investigation has established, the mass murdering has commited the Shwartz Ervin. He was a devoted member of National-socialist party, he voluntary has decided to kill all his family,by opening the viens .12 march he suggested the other two families to commit suicide together.
    The survived woman confirmed, they were agree to commit suicide after the Ervin's "agitation". He personally also cut off throat of four persons.
    Frida Bohenen didn't wish to cutt the viens and resisted but Ervin has done it by force. After that the Fridal lost the mind and didn't see what happend to their children.
    Frida testimony, that Ervin inspired- when russians come, they will rape and kill everybody, the few surviviours will be moved to Syberia. SO there is no any sense to live longer.
    Lere BErga ,Frida said,actively helped the Ervin in his agitation, who later cutted off the veins and died.
    The same day, in forest , near the Zubitz were found the 18 years Lere Margarita, with marks of suffocation on neck. She claims that three rea army soldiers strangled her in attempt to rape.However the Frida Bohenen said , the Margarita was a daughter of Lera Berga and mark of suffocation is a resault of her attempt to suicide.
    Inspite of medical aid ( forced) the Ervin Shwartz has died 15 march from Losing of blood.
    the rest found in barn , also died till that day.
    Chiefe of 7-department , leutenant-colonel Zabashtanskij
    The terrible story of "suicide"( formally it was murdering of children).
    5 fanatical madmans murdered 11 their children by their own hands.
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-19-2009 at 07:34 AM.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    Yes, it does, Chevan.
    This technique is called Sensitivity analysis.
    Oh sure, the KGB-developed analisys
    That imply the working mathematical model.
    Which only you alone know how to operate

    According to Reichling (see table) in 1950 there remained 14.296.000 Germans in the Soviet Occupied Zone (6.669.000 women, 4.749.000 men, 2.878.000 children). Reichling postulates that 500.000 of these women were raped.
    Well this look like a true.
    I can admit there were 15 mln of germans in ALL Soviet zone, including Austria.500k might be really raped for a all period. Its quite wrong to claim, however, the fate all of them were determined by soviet authorities. In fact the post war deportation of germans were organized by Polish and CHehoslovakian authorities.Either the claim that 500k of woman were raped exclusively by Red Army is not correct.
    Yes, forced prostitution is no good thing... But is not completely black and white issue either. That is why I wrote that it has to be done with sertain consideration. Else according to the documentation used by Johr other allies raped 50.000 women in Berlin in 1945. Is that reasonable to think?
    Yes it does. The 100K is also resonable figure IMO.
    But not 2 mln.
    As i pointed out, the 100 000 raped in 3 mln Berlin lies in strong opposition to supposed 2 mln raped in all of 15 mln occuped Est Germany.
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-19-2009 at 07:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    So how many German women were raped? And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too? Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread.
    Why shall we care about Neonazi, Nick?
    Do you claim those mind-defective people use any logic in their race-hate ideas?
    Yes, they actualy in their mind has "dismissed" the jewish Holocaust a long time ago( the first thing that they usialy like to do ). And they don't really care whatever it was "correct" method or not.
    And if a lot of GErmans still think that GErmany was a .... victims of foreign agressors and circumstances- i hope you will not to rewrite the official western point about who statrted the ww2 becouse of it, right?
    Or you have an other opinion?
    We don't need to hide the red army crimes - we will only win if the real criminals will be judged.
    But judge imply the investigation and studiing of testimonies.
    The figure of 2 mln if EXACTLY THAT propogandic figure that actively is used NOW by Neonizis in west as justification of NS.You should be aware of it.
    Last edited by Chevan; 10-19-2009 at 07:52 AM.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    So how many German women were raped?
    I really don't know. IMO many-many thousands. Really many. But I don't know my self.
    But now I know that Johr and Reichling didn't knew either even though they published their numbers.
    But numbers have magic in them. Large numbers especially. At sertain point their become brands used to manipulate public opinion.

    And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too?
    Some of them are.

    Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread.
    I agree, that is a relevant question to ask.
    The differnece in this particular case would be (from the top of my head) that a) understanding exactly what the losses mean, i.e. out of 13,5M Soviet civilian victims, only 7,5M is atributed as "killed intentinally", this is including Holocaust victims too; b) on German side existed state driven ideological antipathy towards some parts of local population. On the Soviet side this deliberate anthipaty policy was not present. The alledged "Kill German" pamphlet by Ilya Ehrenburg was serving completely different purpose, though I agree that it backfired when RKKA entered Germany; c) During the war, the Gemran army spent longer time in USSR then Soviet in German territories.

    Otherwise I would preffer if we could continue (if you wish so) this particular topic in another thread.
    Last edited by Egorka; 10-19-2009 at 08:37 AM.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    So how many German women were raped? And are the numbers of Soviet dead in the Great Patriotic War all exaggerations or lies too? Because I hear a lot of Germans don't want to believe that their forefathers committed atrocities in Russia, and if we apply the same standard of proof for said deaths - then Neonazi apologists can just as easily dismiss said figures based on the silly logic and statements being made in this thread.
    Sounds about right to me.

    Assumptions pulled out of the air and figures and calculations based on them and then used as a basis for 'sensitivity analysis' seem to lack sensitivity, and sense, to me.

    So far as this thread is concerned, I couldn't give a fishy **** how many German women were raped by the Soviets, or by Americans or British or extra-terrestrials.

    Any more than I care about the exact number of Jews exterminated by the Nazis or the exact number of Russian POWs killed or allowed to die by the Nazis.

    Or the exact number of Poles or German POWS killed by the Soviets.

    And so on.

    Most European nations in WWII behaved like a bunch of ****s, and generally the further east they were the worse they behaved, ignoring the brilliantly brutal ****ishness of the ****s in parts of Yugoslavia which wasn't that far east.

    Those peoples all bear the appropriate level of blame for their conduct and sympathy for their suffering.

    So far as the degree of their evil is concerned, I really couldn't care if they had five thousand six hundred and ninety four or elebenty leben hairs on their ****s. They were still ****s.

    Attempts at statistical guilt reduction, or increase, based on nonsensical arithmetic don't alter the fact that the Nazis were ****s in occupied territories and so were the Soviets.
    ..
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    That imply the working mathematical model.
    Which only you alone know how to operate
    That is not correct.
    All the data I used is present in my post #18. If you disagree with some of it, you should correct me. But the model is there, and it is explained. There are no hiden points in there.

    Well this look like a true.
    I can admit there were 15 mln of germans in ALL Soviet zone, including Austria.500k might be really raped for a all period. Its quite wrong to claim, however, the fate all of them were determined by soviet authorities. In fact the post war deportation of germans were organized by Polish and CHehoslovakian authorities.Either the claim that 500k of woman were raped exclusively by Red Army is not correct.
    I am not 100% sure, but my impression that Reichling does not actualy mean that all aleged 2M rapes were done exclusivly by Soviets.
    But maybe Flamethrougherguy could help on this.

    Yes it does. The 100K is also resonable figure IMO.
    When you say reasonable figure, you base it on what ground?

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    So far as this thread is concerned, I couldn't give a fishy **** how many German women were raped by the Soviets, or by Americans or British or extra-terrestrials.
    You don't give a **** and neither does the general public.
    But the general public does give a **** about nice big round numbers like 2M.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    You don't give a **** and neither does the general public.
    But the general public does give a **** about nice big round numbers like 2M.
    If the general public doesn't give a ****, it doesn't give a **** what the figure is.

    As for the figure being 2m, I haven't heard the general public giving a **** about that either, any more than they give a **** about the 6m Soviets who died and about which they are equally ignorant.
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