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Thread: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

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    Default Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Hello,

    There has been a bit of commotion in the photo section of the forum regarding the rape victims of RKKA in Germany and namely its numerical evaluation.
    Anyway, I was hoping that Flamethrowerguy could illuminate some German sources on this matter.

    By sources I mean actual SOURCES and not just where some number is quoted.

    F.ex. Beefvor's "Berlin The Downfall 1945" is NOT a source on this particular matter, because the author only quotes others when elaborating on the topic of this thread.
    Whereas "BeFreier und Befreite" by Helke Sander and Barbara Johr does indeed brings new material and presents original assessment of the situation.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    So is Beevor's book Stalingrad not a source to be trusted on German atrocities committed in the Soviet Union?

    Because I just used information derived from that book in the comments section of that very picture...

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    So is Beevor's book Stalingrad not a source to be trusted on German atrocities committed in the Soviet Union?

    Because I just used information derived from that book in the comments section of that very picture...
    That would depend on what information Beevor presents there. If it an original info not available previously or available only in a very limited circle, then Yes, it can be viewed as a source on that info.
    If, on the other hand, his info is a reproduction of the info from other books, then No, it cann't be viewed as a source on that info.

    I did not expect at all any objections on this part.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    That would depend on what information Beevor presents there. If it an original info not available previously or available only in a very limited circle, then Yes, it can be viewed as a source on that info.
    If, on the other hand, his info is a reproduction of the info from other books, then No, it cann't be viewed as a source on that info.

    I did not expect at all any objections on this part.
    I do have somewhat of an objection, because Beevor does in fact cite specific critics of the Red Army's bahavior in Germany who themselves were members of the Soviet forces...

    I also object to the inherent bias in the photo captioning as well, when we have some ****wit member with "SS" in his user-ID spewing such comments on the Soviet forces. But I was wondering how many photos of Germans in the Soviet Union he captions with, "I wonder how many children they murdered in reprisal killings?"

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    I guess then we understand word source differently.
    For me "source" in means Original information and not just an interpretation of someone elses info.

    F.ex. Beevor conveyed number 2M raped women in Germany. Where does that figure comes from? Beevor didn't calculate it himself. He refferes to other sources for that. So it is those sources that are sources in this case.

    Flamethrowerguy mentioned other real sources. I would really want to know which one he ment as I my self don't read in German.

    I my self know of only one such source chain: already mentioned "Libirators and liberated" by 2 female authors, which in it's turn reffers to a work of a German proffessor (can't look up his name right now).
    So there you can actually see the origins of number 2 million. But not in the Beevors book.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    I'm not sure how it is phrased in Russian, but in English they are typically described as Primary and Secondary sources - Primary sources being original material from those who were there, Secondary sources being people reporting what others have written. In this case Beevor would be a Secondary source - and as a well respected, serious historian quite a good one.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    F.ex. Beefvor's "Berlin The Downfall 1945" is NOT a source on this particular matter, because the author only quotes others when elaborating on the topic of this thread.
    Building on pdf27's last post, if Beevor quotes primary sources then that is the best evidence available, but if he quotes secondary sources one has to go to the sources relied upon by those authors to determine whether they are primary or secondary sources to evaluate the strength of that evidence. That is the purpose of footnotes and bibliographies, to allow readers to assess the author's evidence and interpretation.

    However, 'primary' sources in historians' usage can mean many things in this context, from the account of a person complaining of rape; to the account of someone who records what someone said who claimed to have been raped; to the account of someone who says it was well known that people were being raped but had no personal knowledge of it as a victim or recipient of a complaint. The second and third categories carry progressively less evidentiary weight than the first.
    ..
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    F.ex. Beefvor's "Berlin The Downfall 1945" is NOT a source on this particular matter, because the author only quotes others when elaborating on the topic of this thread..
    endeed.
    Beeing a brilliant publicist, Bevour often write the facts that he, merely can't know for sure.Or use his own constructions as a ..facts. For instance -some historians have very serious objection to the bevours's statistic of victims.
    For the first time i meet his mistakes when i was reading his fascinating "Stalingrad".The scene of battle in Grain store .
    The primary sorce of this scene was told in famouse memours of general Vasiliy Chiykov "Battle of Centure". According the book, the story was initially told by the veteran of Battle for Grain - the commander naval infantry platoon Andrey Hozainov.
    Bevoure not just seriously distorted the original story , but even, hasn't mentioned the Primary source in his list of literature.
    The next , wery unpleasant discovery for me was his direct slander on vets of 10 infantry division of NKVD , that participated in the battle.In fact the main role of that division was to defend the supplied line of 62-army and defence of its back.Almost all of the division was wiped out during the battle.Many of vets died as heroes.
    If , say the Andrey Hozainov was a brits- the Bevouse probably might to get a serious court claims for slander.
    But he is not, and we just watching and enjoy the brilliand self-developed reading.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    F.ex. Beevor conveyed number 2M raped women in Germany. Where does that figure comes from? Beevor didn't calculate it himself. .
    I strongly doubt anybody has such a statistic.
    Endeed all what the BEvoure whas written in "BerlinDownfall" was literaly:
    "One of soviet hight officers boasted after the war- there were about 2 millions of babies was born in GErmany from Red Army soldiers"( or something kinda that)
    That's all the statistic
    Think yourself- who may to calculate those figures?
    Hardly the Autrorities of DDR may to do this. There were no a court procedure , except the few dozen known of military tribunal execution of Red Army soldiers for "immoral behaviour toward civils". It was just a "drop in sea".
    The figure of 2 million was based on ..rumours and fear-tells, that actively was supported in the West during the Cold war( becouse we all know why).
    Honestly , the Soviet sources also err from the true, accepting the Goebbels-based figures about victims of firebombing of Drezden.
    P.S. if serious , i don't think that the raping can be considered as a "serious military crime" in war, where people were killed by millions.For me is much more terrible story - the post-war mass execution of GErman civils kinda mass murdering the refugees near Marienburg.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Firstly, I'd like some citations regarding the lack of citations and accuracy. I what context did Beevor say the number "two million" and what page/chapter/section is the statistic listed?

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Firstly, I'd like some citations regarding the lack of citations and accuracy. I what context did Beevor say the number "two million" and what page/chapter/section is the statistic listed?
    Well , i m not sure about the American edition, but there is the Russian translation of Berlin Downfall
    http://militera.lib.ru/research/beevor2/27.html
    Chapter 27.
    Vae Victis
    Берлинцы помнят пронзительные крики по ночам, раздававшиеся в домах с выбитыми окнами. По оценкам двух главных берлинских госпиталей, число жертв изнасилованных советскими солдатами колеблется от девяноста пяти до ста тридцати тысяч человек. Один доктор сделал вывод, что только в Берлине было изнасиловано примерно сто тысяч женщин. Причем около десяти тысяч из них погибло в основном в результате самоубийства. Число смертей по всей Восточной Германии, видимо, намного больше, если принимать во внимание миллион четыреста тысяч изнасилованных в Восточной Пруссии, Померании и Силезии. Представляется, что всего было изнасиловано порядка двух миллионов немецких женщин, многие из которых (если не большинство) перенесли это унижение по нескольку раз
    Тема массовых бесчинств Красной Армии в Германии была так долго под запретом в России, что даже теперь ветераны отрицают, что они имели место. Лишь некоторые говорили об этом открыто, но без всяческих сожалений. Он даже хвалился, что «два миллиона наших детей родились в Германии».

    Berliners still remember the night cries that was heard on the streets. Accroding the estimates of two Berlin's major hospitals , the figures of raped in Berlin lies from 95 to 135 thousands. The other doctors claims - there were raped up to 100 thousands.About 10 thousands later had commited suicide.However the total figure of victims in entire East Germany is much bigger - only inEastern Prussia and Pomerania were raped up to 1 million 400 thousands of women( ???). It's a appears , that the final figure of raped germans was close to the TWO MILLIONS
    The theme of mass raping of Germans was tabou for so long time, that russian vets still deny the facts( ??? facts or statistic)
    Just few told boldly , but without regret- one even boasted - the two million of OUR babies had been born in Germany
    I don't know where he migh to get such a figures, buf for sake of true, he noticed that the rapings were commited not just by the Soldiers. the foreigh workers and former prisoners of camps also took active participation in violence .
    Sometimes he wrote a real nonsence.
    Chapter 28
    Политические работники были также обеспокоены распространившимися среди военнослужащих «антисоветскими высказываниями». Многие солдаты жаловались на то, что на родине к их семьям не относятся с должным вниманием. Один из них утверждал в разговоре с источником, что не верит в улучшение жизни в тыловых районах, поскольку имел случай наблюдать все собственными глазами{988}. Военнослужащим не нравилось и то, как относятся и к ним самим. Даже в самом конце войны некоторые части были близки к мятежу, узнав об инструкциях, предписывающих раздевать погибших солдат вплоть до нижнего белья. Только офицеры могли быть похоронены при полной форме. Последний факт, кстати, мог служить одной из причин участившихся убийств нелюбимых офицеров своими же собственными подчиненными

    Political officers were worried by the anti-soviet sentences among the soldiers.Soldiers also didn't like the new instructions which order to undress the died soldiers to underwear. Only the officers migh be bury in full form.That fact can be the reason of murder the officers by their own soldiers.
    Honestly , i can't even imagine where Bevour might to find this bul...it.Obviously this man sometims forget about Sense of reality.
    not i wish to say he is lie, but sometims i felt i read the nowell , but not a work that claims to be the historical research.
    It's funny - man who calculater all the raped german woman , seems forget to add about more then 600 thousands of victims of firebombing in Germany. Its look like very biased matter for me.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Well , i m not sure about the American edition, but there is the Russian translation of Berlin Downfall
    http://militera.lib.ru/research/beevor2/27.html
    Chapter 27.
    Vae Victis
    I'm not that far yet, but I'll scan it over...

    Obviously it's an estimate. But in any case, how many were raped? Are we supposed to not mention inconvenient historical facts just because the NKVD didn't keep copious records on rapes?

    How would one get an exact total when the Nazi-German regime was collapsing, and they themselves largely ignored the plight of their people in any capacity other than for propaganda purposes.

    It was in fact the ****ing bastards in the Nazi high command and regional adjuncts that refused to allow civilians to flee, or plan systematic withdrawals to, the Red Army advances until it was too late, often while they themselves fled West after exhorting the people to fight to the death...

    I don't know where he migh to get such a figures, buf for sake of true, he noticed that the rapings were commited not just by the Soldiers. the foreigh workers and former prisoners of camps also took active participation in violence .
    Sometimes he wrote a real nonsence.
    This is probably true. Beevor mentions that the German high command had a real fear of uprisings by concentrated numbers of conscripted foreign workers. Beevor also mentions that Polish and even Soviet girls forced to Germany were raped...

    Chapter 28

    Honestly , i can't even imagine where Bevour might to find this bul...it.Obviously this man sometims forget about Sense of reality.
    not i wish to say he is lie, but sometims i felt i read the nowell , but not a work that claims to be the historical research.
    It's funny - man who calculater all the raped german woman , seems forget to add about more then 600 thousands of victims of firebombing in Germany. Its look like very biased matter for me.

    Actually he mentions firebombing by the Western Allies and mentions Dresden predominately. If you actually bother to read his work on Stalingrad, he also labors to mention the massive suffering endured by the Soviet people under Nazi occupation. In the edition of The Fall of Berlin 1945 I am reading, he mentions Dresden on no less than six different pages (times) throughout the book. On page 83 (US edition), he describes the raids of February 13 and 14th as "merciless".

    He also takes great pains to mention that the Soviets were outraged after overrunning concentration camps and lovely facilities designed to research the making of soap out of human corpses and points out repeatedly the German atrocities in the Soviet Union as the ominous shadow hanging over the Germans about to be overrun.

    He white-washes nothing...

    But you would of course actually have to read the books rather than selectively judging the segments of the book based on websites and message boards.

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I'm not that far yet, but I'll scan it over...

    Obviously it's an estimate. But in any case, how many were raped? Are we supposed to not mention inconvenient historical facts just because the NKVD didn't keep copious records on rapes?
    That's whole a problem. Nobody exactly know the figures. Bevour claims that the Berlin's hospitals estimates the number of raped in berlin near 100 000. This is probably close to reality.
    But his sentences about 1,4 million raped in East Prussia can't has any other sorce except the nazis era stattistic( that hardly differ from propogand)
    Coz the Red Army has cuptured the East prussia and Pomerania- the Nazis germany still existed.
    BTW he wrote a quite amazing things for me.
    Chapter 27
    Интересно, что в Померании в отличие от других германских земель, оккупированных Красной Армией, остававшееся там немецкое население было настроено к русским гораздо более дружественно. Дело в том, что померанцы с [545] тревогой ожидали того дня, когда их родные места перейдут под контроль Польши. Они приходили в ужас от одной только мысли, какой может быть для них месть со стороны поляков
    its interesting, that the population of Pomerania were more friendly to Russians, becose they feared that day when their land should be pass under controll of Poland. They come to horror from thought which migh be the revenge of poles.
    This little paragrah contains very importaint sence.
    The LOCAL POPULATION of Eastern Europe actively participated in raping and murdering of GErmans.
    But Bevour easy hang all the victims to the ..Red Army
    The contemporary researches claims that about 2 million of ethnical germans civils simply ...disappeared during post war deportation in Eastern Europe. But agenda of Bevour is just ...rapings of red army.The strange approach.
    It was in fact the ****ing bastards in the Nazi high command and regional adjuncts that refused to allow civilians to flee, or plan systematic withdrawals to, the Red Army advances until it was too late, often while they themselves fled West after exhorting the people to fight to the death...
    They were bus...rds of cource.
    But i have to add..there were a certain sence in forbidding the total evacuation to the west.
    Where they eastern rural population have to fled?
    To the Western cities?
    It's not me to tell you the ALL of german cities were crushed to the stone during the last month of war.
    The refugees not just blocked all the roads , but created the serious epidemic problems in the cities.

    This is probably true. Beevor mentions that the German high command had a real fear of uprisings by concentrated numbers of conscripted foreign workers. Beevor also mentions that Polish and even Soviet girls forced to Germany were raped...
    Bevour wasn't first who mentioned that every one from age 8 to 80 were rapedi Eastern Zone It seems Goebbels after Nemmersdorf has introduced it to practice.
    But he definitelly has developed the "concept" to its best.he Western Zone, as we might to conclude was a paradice for GErman population

    Actually he mentions firebombing by the Western Allies and mentions Dresden predominately. If you actually bother to read his work on Stalingrad, he also labors to mention the massive suffering endured by the Soviet people under Nazi occupation. In the edition of The Fall of Berlin 1945 I am reading, he mentions Dresden on no less than six different pages (times) throughout the book. On page 83 (US edition), he describes the raids of February 13 and 14th as "merciless".
    Yes he mentioned casually the violence on the East.And he mentioned ONCE Drezden as "mercilles".
    Chapter 6
    East and West
    В ту же ночь британская авиация произвела налет на Дрезден. А на следующее утро удары по некоторым менее значительным целям нанесли ВВС Соединенных Штатов Америки. Все это было представлено как быстрый ответ на желание советской Ставки предотвратить переброску немецких войск с одного фронта на другой. Планировщики этих ударов были обозлены также фактом непрекращающихся немецких атак по Англии с использованием новейшего оружия — ракет фау. Только за последнюю неделю немцы выпустили по Британским островам сто восемьдесят ракет — что стало своеобразным рекордом. В свою очередь, Дрезден, импозантная столица Саксонии, никогда ранее не подвергался сильным бомбежкам союзной авиации. Дрезденцы даже шутили, что вроде бы в их городе проживает тетя Черчилля, и именно потому они живут достаточно спокойно. Этому спокойствию настал конец во время безжалостных налетов 13 и 14 февраля. Эффект от ударов был сравним с разрушениями Гамбурга. Более того, дополнительно к местным жителям в Дрездене в тот момент находилось еще порядка трехсот тысяч беженцев с востока. Несколько поездов с ними расположились на главном вокзале города. Вопреки утверждениям советской стороны [103] эти железнодорожные поезда перевозили не немецкие войска, а мирных граждан, — к тому же не на восток, а на запад.

    That night the RAF bombed the Drezden. Next morning the USAAF also began to bomb some less significan "targets"( my comments -he probably meant the Drezden railway station)It was presented as quick answer of the soviet demand to neitralise the possibility to transport the german reinforcement to the Eastern front(!!!!!)Those who planned the bombings also were angered by the continious German attack on England , using the newest V-2. Only dufing last week were send up about 180 missles.It was a record all during the war.
    On it's turn Drezden, the buatiful capital of Saxonia, were never bombed before. Drezdeners even joked - it coz aunt of CHirchil lives in their city? therefore they live relatively calm.The calm has ended during the MERCILLES raid of 13 and 14 febriary.
    The effect was compared to which was in Gamburg. Additionaly there were about 300 000 of refugess from East inDresden.The few trains with them were still on the reailroad station( my comment - the refugees were not in station, but were placed on City park. The RAF didn't even tried to bomb station, the USAF did it on morning 14 feb.) .
    Despite of claims the Soviets - those trains transported not the germn troops but refugees, and not to East, but to the West
    What an interesting text.
    From which we accidentaly migh to learn that...allies air command indeed didn't wish to bomb the Dresden , but dastard soviet has demanded it.
    According the Bevour, The tragedy of Dresden was happend becouse..
    -Germans themsleft bombed Britain first.
    -Soviets asked to bomb the city
    the british high command it seems was a naive victims of circumstance.
    Nick, this is not even funny.
    The Bevour not just keep silence about figures of victims , but try to turn the things up side down- he claims that soviet asced to do it.He simply ignored doctrine of Arthur Harris.
    He white-washes nothing...
    True, nothing execpt the actions of OWN British military forces.
    Bevoure even blamed the poles for their cruel relation to germans(remember my post about 80 murdered german pows by the polish escort?)
    But you would of course actually have to read the books rather than selectively judging the segments of the book based on websites and message boards.
    Nick , i have the book right in my house, and i read this from start to end at least 3 times since 2004 when i'v bought it.Not to mention how much times i re-read the some paragraphs and chapters.
    I use the Internet source just to show you the original text without scanning and recognition.
    My point is not i dislike the Bevour or claim he is liar.
    But he is a bit...non objective.
    If you are going to write a book about last days of Berlin in ww2 and suffering of german civils - you shall at least to calcilate all the victims, including the victims of bombing.
    Bu it seems bevour's ill sexual imagination didn't really care of it.
    We know, according the last historical estimates , the figure of victims of firebombing compain in GErmany were about 600 000 civils. Bevour has mentioned it NOWHERE.
    I repeat NOWHERE, this man calculated the victims of Allies.
    Insted he just persistly inspire the thought about 2 million raped during all the book.Nice method.
    In this prospect his book look rather like one more russophobe nowel , that might to case the negative reaction.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    Almost forgot.
    The Chapter6 and Chapter27 was probably the best in whole the book.
    If you can scan the book, Nick , pliease scan those chapters.
    The next paragraph is just brilliant
    right after the bombing of Drezden
    Геббельс, по-видимому шокированный произошедшим, хотел немедленно расправиться с таким же количеством союзных военнопленных, сколько мирных граждан было убито во время налетов{191}. Эта идея понравилась Гитлеру. Однако столь жестокие меры шли вразрез со статьями Женевской конвенции и еще раз показали бы общественному мнению Запада, против кого они ведут борьбу. Такой шаг не оставил бы немцам другого выхода — только сражаться до самого конца. Видимо, поэтому генерал Йодль, поддержанный Риббентропом, фельдмаршалом Кейтелем и гросс-адмиралом Дёницем, в конце концов смог настоять на том, что подобная эскалации террора не принесет Германии никакой пользы. Тем не менее Геббельс постарался выжать все возможное из этой «террористической атаки».

    Goebbels were shocked by the attack on Drezden and had suggested to kill the equal number of allied pows. Hitler has appreciated this idea.However those meants were a serious violation of Geneva convention and one more time would demontrate to wolrd whith whom the Allies fought())Such a step doesn't leave the other way to germany as to fought to the end.( and what they did endeed??)
    Therefore the general Yodl , supported by Ribbentrop , Keitel and Donetz, finaly migh to convince the Hitler that such an escalation of terror will not be profitable to GErmany(?)
    Nevetheless Goebbels took all possible propogandic matter from "teroristic attack" .
    That's very funny.
    Firsly , mr Bevour try to convince the readers that some Nazis boss kinda Ribbemtrop actualy care about Geneva convention.
    its look like Geneva convention recommends to bult the death-camp of occuped territories.
    or mr Bevour simply didn't knew about death-camp in Poland that were already liberated in jenuary 1945, neither he heard about mass Ethnical purges on the East?Plan of extermination Jews from Europe also were Mystery for Bevour, and Nazis bosses as well.
    Sure all of it is highly recommended in Geneva convention
    It seems also the Youdl and Keitel , beeing fanatical nazy , didn't even guess about millions killed in Aushwitz?
    Coz they feared to violate the .....geneva conventions , killing additional 30-50 thousand of POWs
    Secondary, the Hitler ostensibly , was scared by perspective of Total war to the end
    Of course , having exterminated all the slavs and jews in Europe and USSR, Hitler would not be obligated wage the war to the end, as if they killed allied pows.
    Both points are rater silly but fun.
    I can find a lot of simular thing in whole a book, but i will just waithing for the Nicki

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Rapes by RKKA in Germany, 1945

    I don't have time to go line by line and post my personal thoughts. But I read Beevor's short bio on Wiki yesterday and I think most might find this to be of interest:

    Criticism

    Berlin: The Downfall 1945 has encountered criticism in Russia.[4] The Russian ambassador to the UK denounced the book as "lies" and "slander against the people who saved the world from Nazism".[5] O.A. Rzheshevsky, a professor and President of the Russian Association of World War II Historians, has charged that Beevor is merely resurrecting the discredited and racist views of Neo-Nazi historians, who depicted Soviet troops as subhuman "Asiatic hordes".[6] Other western historians such as Richard Overy have criticised Russian "outrage" at the book and defended Beevor. Overy accused the Russians of refusing to acknowledge Soviet war crimes, "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history."[7]

    This criticism centres on the book's discussion of atrocities committed by the Red Army against German civilians – in particular, the extremely widespread rape of German women and female Russian forced labourers, both before and after the end of the war.[8] Beevor himself stated that he is critical of portraying Germans as victims. In an interview with the major Polish daily Gazeta Wyborcza, he stated that the entry of the Red Army was the result of a German-intiated war, as well as the fact that German society overwhelmingly supported Hitler and in fact wanted the war, pointing out that the women were also part of that society. Additionally he refuses to see Germans as victims, unlike Jews, Poles or Russians.[9]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Beevor

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