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Thread: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Not too mention machine guns, submachine guns, tanks, self-loading rifles, trained pilot replacements, dug in enemy infantry supported by artillery, et cetera...
    And right up to the Atomic Bomb they were still in 'Banzai' mode. A large portion of their home defense organzation were armed with bambo spears.

    Yea, like that would do it.

    Deaf

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Not too mention machine guns, submachine guns, tanks, self-loading rifles, trained pilot replacements, dug in enemy infantry supported by artillery, et cetera...
    It doesn't matter how good those things were if the troops were too ill and or too starved to use them properly, as many were on the Kokoda Track retreat and at Gona - Buna - Sanananda by the end of 1942, a bare ten months on from their triumphant victory in Malaya.

    The following note illustrates both the belief in spirit over medical treatment, and from a medical officer, and the breakdown in field hygiene.

    Gastroenteritis afflicted most of the Japanese soldiers in New Guinea, causing diarrhoea and dysentery. While rarely fatal, it could be a debilitating condition, causing dehydration and complicating other illnesses. Medical 2nd Lieutenant SAVATARI Zengoro "...did not think this was a very serious menace". He stated there were numerous cases "PW stated that soldiers with strong constitutions carried on when they were suffering from dysentery." [1]

    Cause: Gastroenteritis is caused by a bacterial or viral infection transmitted through contaminated water and food. In the 1940’s, native New Guineans did not use latrines, their houses were built on stilts and they defecated on the ground through holes in the floor, counting on the rain to wash away the waste. The runoff contaminated available fresh water. Flies would land on the excrement and then transfer the micro-organisms by landing on food. Since Japanese (as well as Australian and American) soldiers were not immune to the local diseases, they would get infected if they drank the water or ate the contaminated food. [2]

    Prevention: The Japanese No. 55 Epidemic Prevention and Water Supply Unit was sent to New Guinea to identify disease pathogens in the combat zone and ensure a clean water supply for the soldiers. However, the unit’s effectiveness decreased the further inland the troops went as noted by Savatari, "special units were responsible for filtering, but whilst this was practical when in billets away from the front, it was impossible to expect such units to cope with the situation on active operations. All water was supposed to boiled before use, but river water was more often than not drunk straight from the streams." [3]

    Sanitation efforts broke down in the field, further compounding Japanese soldiers’ exposure to pathogens. While, as Savatari reported, "all ranks were lectured on the need for hygiene, but on active service it was practically impossible to enforce any set rule or regulation." [4] Even in garrison, sanitary rules were not always enforced. An American internee described one base in 1943–44, "Although it was announced that Amele was to remain a Japanese Army base, the latrine which the officers used was soon filthy and the whole compound became polluted with Japanese faeces. The American internee put in more effort at sanitary policing than the Japanese officer-in-charge." [5]

    Epidemiology: Although there are no known reliable statistics, most Japanese soldiers suffered from diarrhoea and dysentery. Those suffering from dysentery usually stayed with their unit, frequently walking naked with leaves hanging from their buttocks to prevent them from soiling their uniform. The cases that were hospitalised, since they were the most serious cases, had a high mortality rate. In 1943, the case mortality rate of gastroenteritis patients from the 21st Independent Mixed Brigade was 69 per cent. [6]

    Treatment: The medical treatment was a traditional Japanese charcoal preparation Arushirin taken three times daily after meals. [7]
    http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/AJRP/remember...1?OpenDocument

    Medical services can make a winning contribution to the success of long campaigns, especially in jungle or other high disease areas.

    Professor Humphreys says that during the Battle of Kokoda in 1942, when Japanese troops came within 55km of Port Moresby, more than 2000 Australian soldiers were stricken with bacillary dysentery and were admitted to medical holding units, after forcing a Japanese retreat.

    The soldiers were treated with the first 37kg of sulphaguanidine ever to be produced from a manufacturing process developed by Professor Trikojus, and the epidemic was rapidly checked.

    Wartime medical expert Colonel Sir Alan Newton wrote at the time that “had the drug not been available the course of the new Guinea campaign might have been unfavourable to our cause...Happily the drug was there to give, owing to the efforts of an Australian scientist, Professor Trikojus.
    http://voice.unimelb.edu.au/view.php?articleID=699

    The Japanese did not have sulphaguanidine and suffered a much greater reduction than the Australians in combat efficiency because of it.

    As a result of sickness and the failure to supply troops with adequate rations because of the Japanese preference for living off the land, the Japanese became pathetically ill and weak on the retreat on the Kokoda Track.

    In September 1942, HORII ordered serious ration restrictions. Rice rations were reduced to two-thirds of a pint for the physically active and half a pint for others. Commanders were urged to capture food supplies and live off the land. Foraging parties were organised. A few parachute drops of supplies were made but there was no real attempt to use aircraft to solve the supply problem. By October, requisitioning food from Papuans was failing as a strategy and even dried roots were being eaten. Discipline was breaking down – bags of rice were being stolen and supply units were consuming food intended for front-line units. Grass, roots and fruits that Papuans and Australians knew were inedible were being eaten by the Japanese. In mid-October a 41st Regiment document stated "officers and men realise the present condition of the formation cannot be helped. However, the men are gradually weakening in their physical condition due to lack of food and the continuous rain with no chance of recovery." The Japanese captured tainted rations along the Kokoda Trail and ate them quickly resulting in stomach pains, internal problems and widespread dysentery.

    The Japanese retreat back down the Kokoda Track was pitiful. They were famished, ill and weary. Unable to carry much, they left a trail of discarded equipment and comrades who were too badly wounded or sick to carry on. The Japanese were so short of rations that some had resorted to cannibalism. On the overland retreat from Sio to Wewak, tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers perished, mostly as a result of sickness and malnutrition. New Guinea was the place, "where soldiers are sent into the jungle without supplies." This seems to have proven the Japanese saying that, "Java is heaven, Burma is hell, but you never come back alive from New Guinea."
    http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/ajrp/remember...ges/NT00005106

    This could easily have been avoided by greater attention to the practicalities of medical services, field hygiene and rations rather than believing that 'spirit' could overcome all obstacles.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun*;158275pretty much doomed it to eventual defeat before it fired the first shot.

    [url
    http://books.google.com.au/books?id=q2pFnALHfykC&pg=PA312&lpg=PA312&dq=masata ka+chihaya+intimate+look+japanese+navy&source=bl&o ts=0No6ZSt6hR&sig=ZZSnlthqWBXeNMF3E2U9ygMCNLI&hl=e n&ei=gaVISqq5AaXa6gPGuKAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=r esult&resnum=1[/url]
    All too true RS

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA

    "not that he was an unwilling participant despite the bullshit he and his "The Emperor knew nothing." supporters presented after the war."

    It was bullshit. Not only was he a willing participant, he was also an instigator of the deepest dye.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA - A couple of follow-up

    I feel quite strongly on the evidence - most of it unsuppressed unlike much of that on Japan - that the British Empire was the least exploitative empire, and had the most positive impact. Still with us too most of that.

    Much of what has been posted on these lines here in this thread is relativistic and way too pc. WWII had to have imperial causes, but to suggest that Britain engaged in it cynically is bathetic or ignorant or worse. Shallow!?

    To suggest that the brief period of debate Japan had in the 1920's - following its first round of brutal and racist expansion - somehow makes it a comparable society or imperial head, to Britain, is just plain weird.

    Viz. After the Amritsar massacre, General Dyer might not have been punished with an actual sentence, but he never worked in the army again. Please find me any similar events where the general was bowler hatted or similar - in Japan's history in Manchuria / Korea before, during, or after the 1920's. Pls find me such an example in German East Africa, or say the Belgian Congo!? eh?

    If we are going to be relativistic let's at least use a properly scaled ruler.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The decisive battle thing goes even deeper. The IJN did not have any serious damage control systems or policy. Fuel tanks on the hangar deck where aircraft were bombed up. It runs through their entire structure and tactical doctrine. No self sealing tanks and no armour in both services aircraft. ...........

    The aristocratic authoritarian bully with a katana who just knows that he MUST get his blow in first, and WILL!

    Japan is not a society I find easy to admire - even now. I do love some aspects, like their gardens, some of their literature, and their high-end audio gear and the actual hi-fi hobby in Japan which is way into valves, vinyl off MC cartridges and high efficiency spkrs. But, it all fits, for me at least.

    I like Teryaki food. But it's hardly haute cuisine, or old!


    Timbo
    Skeptical mensurer, and audio scavenger.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA - A couple of follow-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Timbo in Oz View Post
    I feel quite strongly on the evidence - most of it unsuppressed unlike much of that on Japan - that the British Empire was the least exploitative empire, and had the most positive impact. Still with us too most of that.
    I'm sorry, but this, in my eyes, is a ludicrous statement.

    How was the British Empire anything but extremely exploitative? I'm sure when you ask either Indians, or Chinese, Africans, they well tell you something quite different. Let alone the Native Americans or Native Australians.

    The moment an Empire needs an entire island at the other end of the world just to store its criminals, I would call it extremely repressive - and that's only its own country, not even its colonies!

    Let's face it: The vast majority of what we today accept as official history is what has been written by all the British Lords, officers, colonial landlords, etc, painting the picture of the harmonious lord/servant. Of course they wouldn't see anything wrong with the Empire.

    Your statement seems to be largely based on the fact that there has been no other Empire that managed to expand as far as those of the Britons and keep it for the period of time the Redcoats did.

    You can hardly compare the situation in a country that has been occupied for maybe a couple of years with one that has been occupied for several generations!

    Also, regarding positive impact:

    I don't see that - especially not the most. You could argue that even the Romans outdid the Britons in this regard, bringing advanced mathematics and architecture, such as Aqueducts to the conquered nations. What good, by comparison, did India learn from its British conquerors, other than the rules for Cricket?

    Even today, take a stroll through Buckingham Palace - anybody should get sickened by the continued proud display of the cultural and historical treasures stolen from dozens - if not hundreds - of peoples over the centuries and denied from their rightful owners. This is, of course, not only a British occurrence but can be found in almost all European and American museums.

    This is not meant as a complete riff on the British Empire - but rather a (slightly overreacting) counterargument to your little claim.
    Last edited by Schuultz; 01-02-2010 at 12:35 AM.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Withering assessment of IJN & IJA - A couple of follow-up

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    You could argue that even the Romans outdid the Britons in this regard, bringing advanced mathematics and architecture, such as Aqueducts to the conquered nations.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  8. #23
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    Default For Schultz

    Firstly, I too am angered by the distance between what humans en masse end up creating, and our shared ideals globally. And, by the smugness of those in power and the deep unwillingness to think about redesign. but I ahve enough sense to face that history is the past and can't be changed.

    Given the tone of your post, I think you might still have missed the point inherent in the Monty Python sketch from "the Life of Brian".

    the BE brought with it, implicitly and explicitly the market capitalism system and exploitation of those without market power, but it also brought with it the benefits of that system, and

    the rule of law,
    roads,
    railways,
    science,
    medicine,
    and relative peace after about 1810 in India. leaving aside the 1857 war of independence
    the population grew
    incomes grew

    They did not succeed in converting them to Christianity. Swings and round-abouts, eh? ;-)

    To suggest as you have done that my post implied that I thought the BE wasn't backed up by arms and force, or that people weren't exploited, or killed. Reflects more about your own biases than it actually debates what I wrote - which IMO survives your points - because I was not unaware of imperialism's major faults in any case.

    A balanced and quite critical view of the British Empire is available to you right now in the orange Penguin's series. ''Empire" by Niall Ferguson, and while he IS a TV Historian he's also a real academic one as well.

    At a global level, the BE stood up to Hitler, for just long enough on its own. The second war basically ate up any of the wealth left from WWI. Not a bad ending for the 'least bad' of empire.

    Least bad is what we mostly get with large human activity systems, like the global economy, and democratic government. No?!

    Human history is like that.

    I am currently working my way through a history of Scotland (and in passing of England and Ireland), soaked with blood and lies and spin, just like Germany's is I'd be betting, no?

    As a student of history, are you aware that 'frightfulness' was German Army policy for the wheel through Belgium in 1914?
    Skeptical mensurer, and audio scavenger.

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