TŁrk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 44 of 44

Thread: Athens or Sparta

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,338

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    I'm not conviced that this is a good thing...look what happened to Leonidas.
    This is what comes of consulting oracles.

    As an aside, an otherwise reasonably intelligent woman I work with said yesterday that she had to make an appointment with her clairvoyant. I said that this should be unnecessary, because if the clairvoyant was any good she'd know the sheila was coming. My comment was not well received. If I was clairvoyant I would have seen that coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    I agree that no one person in government ought to be able to commit the country to war, but to try to legislate for what would be acceptable conditions for going to war is a bit of a nonsense.
    I agree with that as it impossible to provide for all contingencies (who would have had the foresight before 9/11 to propose a 9/11 attack in a war conditions bill?), but it's a different matter to take the American approach that the power to declare war resides in the legislature rather than the executive. News reports (I haven't read the bill) indicate that all that Ludlum wants is that the legislature rather than the executive decides when we will deploy troops. Which overcomes the American problem (and ours by a different route) that the President can deploy troops for up to 60? days without Congressional approval, which means that in the absence of a Congressional veto the President can commit the country to a war (as in Korea and Vietnam). When the President is of the same party which controls Congress there seems little likelihood of Congress going against the President's decision, so the President (or any other leader in similar position in a parliamentary democracy) has de facto if not de jure power to take the country to war.

    On the other hand a requirement for parliamentary approval brings us back to my earlier comments about the risk of the parliament dithering when decisive action is needed.

    While fully participatory democracy is a nice ideal, the realities and practicalites of governing dictate that a government has to have a pretty much free hand to respond to immediate and grave threats to the nation. As happened in Australia after Japan attacked in WWII. But I don't think it should go so far as 'responding' to vague and unsatisfactorily demonstrated 'threats' like Iraq in 2003.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    Checks and controls, by all means. If we're speaking of democratic decisons, then perhaps it is the electoral system which should be looked at i.e. P.R.
    Do you mean proportional representation?

    If so, I think it has more to commend it than the gerrymandered and disproportionate single seat electorates which elect many of our politicians. We have a mixture of both systems here, but generally not PR where it has real political clout. http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/propor...ortion_rep.htm
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 06-19-2009 at 10:10 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    This is what comes of consulting oracles.
    It was because the laws of Sparta wouldn't permit him to take the army to war during the festival... of something or other?...but I like the joke.

    As an aside, an otherwise reasonably intelligent woman I work with said yesterday that she had to make an appointment with her clairvoyant. I said that this should be unnecessary, because if the clairvoyant was any good she'd know the sheila was coming. My comment was not well received. If I was clairvoyant I would have seen that coming.
    Don't you just like surprises.


    I agree with that as it impossible to provide for all contingencies (who would have had the foresight before 9/11 to propose a 9/11 attack in a war conditions bill?), but it's a different matter to take the American approach that the power to declare war resides in the legislature rather than the executive. News reports (I haven't read the bill) indicate that all that Ludlum wants is that the legislature rather than the executive decides when we will deploy troops. Which overcomes the American problem (and ours by a different route) that the President can deploy troops for up to 60? days without Congressional approval, which means that in the absence of a Congressional veto the President can commit the country to a war (as in Korea and Vietnam). When the President is of the same party which controls Congress there seems little likelihood of Congress going against the President's decision, so the President (or any other leader in similar position in a parliamentary democracy) has de facto if not de jure power to take the country to war.
    I tend to be more focussed on what is happening in the UK rather than the States, although I do try to keep an eye on what is happening with our cousins across the ocean.

    generally speaking: if we are to put our trust in our elected representatives to make decisions for us instead of holding a referendum for every potentially unpopular decision - be it war or not - then surely the way forward has to be to have a system of electing our representatives which represents the majority of the electorate. Since 1979, in the UK we have witnessed two parties taking over control of the country with landslide victories in the polls even thought this is not representative of the electorate as a whole. The two major parties have, up until now, been against PR as it would dilute their power. It would also make it difficult for said parties to take us to war and, perhaps, in those circumstances the UK would not have been embroiled in Iraq. But, even it had been, at least it would have been reflecting a more representative commitment of the nation.

    Do you mean proportional representation?

    If so, I think it has more to commend it than the gerrymandered and disproportionate single seat electorates which elect many of our politicians. We have a mixture of both systems here, but generally not PR where it has real political clout. http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/propor...ortion_rep.htm
    Sorry, I'm in a hurry to go for my train and thought this was above my previous. Yes, I was speaking of proportional representation when I spoke of PR.

    There's always arguments about the sytem of PR to adopt - well, get on with it and select the fairest - who gives a fish's-tit if the italians never agree on anything?

    p.s. Don't you have a home to go to - it's Friday...probably Saturday where you are.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  3. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,338

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    if we are to put our trust in our elected representatives
    Are you completely ****ing crazy?

    Trust those bastards?

    Just look at the way your lot have been fraudulently abusing their allowances etc, across all parties.

    Almost all politicians are ****s. Some are just bigger ****s than others. They mightn't start out that way, but by the time they get into office they've compromised themselves so much that they're bendy men and bendy women, beholden to various interests while obsessed with their own ambitions. A few don't fit that bill, but they're invariably independents or major party renegades who foolishly stand for principle, which is something all politicians pretend to do and which almost none do, not least because most of the bendy ambitious ****s have no idea what 'principle' means beyond being something they parrot for the TV news along with 'responsible' and 'decisive' and everything else they aren't to persuade the electorate that they are. ****s, the lot of them!


    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    So on one hand we have what I think is to make decisions for us instead of holding a referendum for every potentially unpopular decision - be it war or not - then surely the way forward has to be to have a system of electing our representatives which represents the majority of the electorate. Since 1979, in the UK we have witnessed two parties taking over control of the country with landslide victories in the polls even thought this is not representative of the electorate as a whole. The two major parties have, up until now, been against PR as it would dilute their power. It would also make it difficult for said parties to take us to war and, perhaps, in those circumstances the UK would not have been embroiled in Iraq. But, even it had been, at least it would have been reflecting a more representative commitment of the nation.
    The problem comes back to the fact that the size of our populations requires us to have representative rather than Athenian participatory democracies.

    While PR seems fairer, it will be corrupted like all other political processes in modern democracies by things such as sectional interests funding preferred candidates who upon election will favour their funders rather than electoral constituents because the most important thing to a politician who has been elected to power is to be re-elected to pursue their personal ambition.

    All our (Australian) 'pure' minor parties, such as the Greens, sooner or later do deals that shit on their electoral constituents and principles, sometimes by doing deals with the devil as represented by one of the major parties.

    But, for all that, I can't think of a better democratic system in the modern world than a representative democracy. It's just a question of which one we think is most representative or, more accurately, least unrepresentative, against the one politicians think favours them most by ensuring that they aren't representative, either proportionally or by representing constituents' interests in preference to party or funders' interests. ****s! The lot of them, and I say this after long acquaintance with them as junior ****s growing into major ****s over the past couple of decades, in both major parties. I wouldn't piss on any of them if they were on fire.

    Like a few other people I know I have rejected requests to stand for election for a given party, although not necessarily the same party as other people I know who have rejected such requests from the other major party, because like those who support the other side I'm not willing to compromise my principles by doing what is necessary to get through the local party selection committee up to being elected as it is all about subordinating oneself to a rigid party autocracy and spouting the party line.

    As long us people like us stay out of politics nothing will change. And as soon as we get into it, we will change. So the world is doomed to have a certain sort of nasty, grasping, ambitious, unprincipled person fed up the ranks of the party into government and beholden to whatever interests helped them get there. And those politicians can be relied upon to make their decisions to preserve support from the big end of town that got them there rather than the tens of thousands of citizens whose interests the politician supposedly represents in that electorate. Even if proportionately elected.

    Here is why a fully participatory democracy won't work in Australia. The prospect of several million people descending on Canberra several times a year to vote on major issues is alarming. This is what happens when only a few thousand of our prime voting stock descend upon the national capital in their annual pilgrimage, all of whom are clearly of the highest intellect.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51l74...eature=related
    And, don't forget, all of these people vote. Assuming that they know which end of the pencil to use.

    This is our armyís contribution to the national capitalís festival of fuel. Itís my taxes at work, and I think itís money bloody well spent on a Land Rover, including the Corvette motor, Nissan diffs and a Chevy arse. I gather it's the Army's attempt to implement on land the naval command 'Make smoke'.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuHBWfKmRWI

    This is for Nick. The first nipples appear at 15 seconds. Fire appears at the end.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6Wy-U0HpEw
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,338

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    p.s. Don't you have a home to go to - it's Friday...probably Saturday where you are.
    I have the dreaded lurgie.

    More than twenty minutes of sleep without coughing to the point I vomit ain't presently attainable, so my hours are a bit irregular.

    And, No, it's not swine flu.

    There is no way I could have a sleeper virus from the various bush pigs I ****ed in the 1970s.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Please forgive my tardy response, have been a tad busy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Are you completely ****ing crazy?
    It has been said!


    Just look at the way your lot have been fraudulently abusing their allowances etc, across all parties.
    I have been looking - so, what's new?

    The problem comes back to the fact that the size of our populations requires us to have representative rather than Athenian participatory democracies.

    While PR seems fairer, it will be corrupted like all other political processes in modern democracies by things such as sectional interests funding preferred candidates who upon election will favour their funders rather than electoral constituents because the most important thing to a politician who has been elected to power is to be re-elected to pursue their personal ambition.
    As has been happening since at least the time that a few chaps got together, bashed a couple of rocks together and named the result 'Hot'!


    Even the ancients of Athens and Sparta had their spin and and worked their scams, for such is the nature of humankind. As you pointed out, the Athenians didn't have telecommunications, they didn't have the printing press, but they were literate. The bounds of their city were small and communication spread like wildfire through the Agora, which is where much of the factional lobbying took place before the assembly, so that many of the policies were done and dusted before floored in the assembly, nothing new there either.

    If we complain that our governmemt commits us to war and that we didn't elect them to do so - i.e. that it isn't representative of the majority - then we have to find a better way of electing a government that better represents the majority of the electorate. In the UK reform is long overdue not just in the system of electing our governments but in the way parties present their manifestos - the fine detail. Of course that would also put a certain responsibility on the individual to actually read the manifestos.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  6. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,338

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    If we complain that our governmemt commits us to war and that we didn't elect them to do so - i.e. that it isn't representative of the majority - then we have to find a better way of electing a government that better represents the majority of the electorate.
    PR probably goes a fair way to that in the modern world, but it will still be distorted if not corrupted by things such as trade union influence on one side and heavy corporate donations on the other.

    There is also the problem, offensive though it is to some with high ideals, that a significant element of the population isn't capable of making even a mildly informed choice and shouldn't be entrusted with the vote. Or allowed to breed. But we have to allow them to do both, because that is their right in a democratic society where all people have equal rights, even if they don't have equal ability to exercise them rationally and or intelligently.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    In the UK reform is long overdue not just in the system of electing our governments but in the way parties present their manifestos - the fine detail. Of course that would also put a certain responsibility on the individual to actually read the manifestos.
    What's the point in any of that when as soon as they're elected the bastards renege on the promises they made to get elected?

    Our last lot of national professional turds invented 'core' and 'non-core' promises, although only after they were elected on the basis of clearly stated policies which were not identified as 'core' and 'non-core'.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    What's the point in any of that when as soon as they're elected the bastards renege on the promises they made to get elected?

    Our last lot of national professional turds invented 'core' and 'non-core' promises, although only after they were elected on the basis of clearly stated policies which were not identified as 'core' and 'non-core'.
    That's why we ought to have reform, so that it makes it difficult in the extreme for them to renege on their promises.

    Again, economies and their driving forces evolve, and their can be times when something in a manifesto becomes out of date. What we ought to do is make sure that they have a heck of a time proving that that is the situation before they can go back on their promises. If they don't then the coutnry has a vote of confidence regarding the competence/incompetence of its government which, in effect, would lead to an election. There has to be a better way.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  8. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    There is also the problem, offensive though it is to some with high ideals, that a significant element of the population isn't capable of making even a mildly informed choice and shouldn't be entrusted with the vote. Or allowed to breed. But we have to allow them to do both, because that is their right in a democratic society where all people have equal rights, even if they don't have equal ability to exercise them rationally and or intelligently.
    I think I mentioned the chap in the bath previously.

    The Athenian education system was geared up so that those that were '****ed' - as someone so eloquently put it - into forming the 500 actually had an idea of what they were doing - it all boils down to education, then the spin becomes less effective.
    Last edited by 32Bravo; 06-24-2009 at 08:48 AM.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  9. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,338

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    ...it all boils down to education, then the spin becomes less effective.
    Assuming that you're not trying to educate a bunch of kids (whose parents are resentful, self-pitying troglodytes engaging in the odd bit of crime to supplement social security income for which they also don't work) who grow up despising education and the well-meaning and reasonably generous society which tried to give it to them, but from which they didn't benefit because they were too busy disrupting classes or slagging off or belting up teachers or damaging school propery and generally demonstrating their contempt for the institution which offered them the best way out of the shithole they were born into.

    Combine that with the vastly greater resources of the government and political parties to exploit the press in all its forms to manipulate the populace and it's like shooting fish in a barrel as far as manipulating the un or poorly educated, particulary when events such as the (I thought patently weak and specious at the time) arguments for invading Iraq persuaded plenty of highly educated and intelligent people.

    Rather than placing the burden on the populace to be sufficienty well educated to identify politicians' bullshit (which even the best educated often cannot do) it would be better to place the burden on politicians to be honest.

    Consumer protection laws give us clear remedies against misleading and deceptive conduct from everyone except politicians. If the bastards knew they could go to gaol for gaining office by lies and deception and for not honouring their warranties, judged by a jury of those who voted them in and were deceived by them, they'd soon lift their game.

    I don't see why I should have a legal remedy against someone who, even unknowingly, sells me a defective product but I have none against a lying, cheating, devious, piece of shit whose lies jeopardise my country's future just so he or she can satisfy dreams of power.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    I'm not disagreeing with that.

    Perhaps, as well as legal reforms, we ought to look at cultural reforms.

    I seem to recall someone mentioning doffing one's cap in the St Pat's Day procession.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  11. #41
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,338

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    I seem to recall someone mentioning doffing one's cap in the St Pat's Day procession.
    You could be on to something there.

    I suggest a global reincarnation of St Patrick.

    He expelled the snakes from Ireland, so it'd be much the same, albeit much more difficult, getting rid of the political snakes everywhere else.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Assuming that you're not trying to educate a bunch of kids (whose parents are resentful, self-pitying troglodytes engaging in the odd bit of crime to supplement social security income for which they also don't work) who grow up despising education and the well-meaning and reasonably generous society which tried to give it to them, but from which they didn't benefit because they were too busy disrupting classes or slagging off or belting up teachers or damaging school propery and generally demonstrating their contempt for the institution which offered them the best way out of the shithole they were born into.
    "The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for
    authority, they show disrespect to their elders.... They no longer
    rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents,
    chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their
    legs, and are tyrants over their teachers."

    Socrates: 5th century B.C.
    Not enough of them keep their legs crossed!

    "What is happening to our young
    people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They
    ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions.
    Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"

    Plato : 5th/4th century B.C.

    Nothing is wrong with the young people, it's the society they are raised in.
    Last edited by 32Bravo; 06-24-2009 at 01:33 PM.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  13. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Combine that with the vastly greater resources of the government and political parties to exploit the press in all its forms to manipulate the populace and it's like shooting fish in a barrel as far as manipulating the un or poorly educated, particulary when events such as the (I thought patently weak and specious at the time) arguments for invading Iraq persuaded plenty of highly educated and intelligent people.
    Did you realize, that that's quite a long sentence.

    Rather than placing the burden on the populace to be sufficienty well educated to identify politicians' bullshit (which even the best educated often cannot do) it would be better to place the burden on politicians to be honest.
    It is wrong to simply beat the drum for "Equal opportunity" in education. If you were present at some of the arguments I find myself in, you would either kill me or buy me a beer!

    No, problems cannot be solved by simply putting a faulously whizz scool with all of the latest techno wotsits in an impoverished area. Why not? For all of the reasons which you have already stated and more. The whole fabric of society woud have to be restructured in order for that to work.

    Consumer protection laws give us clear remedies against misleading and deceptive conduct from everyone except politicians. If the bastards knew they could go to gaol for gaining office by lies and deception and for not honouring their warranties, judged by a jury of those who voted them in and were deceived by them, they'd soon lift their game.
    Isn't ther an element of "Buyer beware" which limits that protection?

    I don't see why I should have a legal remedy against someone who, even unknowingly, sells me a defective product but I have none against a lying, cheating, devious, piece of shit whose lies jeopardise my country's future just so he or she can satisfy dreams of power.
    You could be onto something there. But in the meantime, how do we go about recruiting St Pat. ?


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  14. #44
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    2,928

    Default Re: Athens or Sparta

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    ... against a lying, cheating, devious, piece of shit whose lies jeopardise my country's future just so he or she can satisfy dreams of power.
    They're everywhere, not just in politics... it's the way of humankind!


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •