Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 31 to 39 of 39

Thread: F-104, the widowmaker.

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,288

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by RepmanHill View Post
    Perhaps lucky, but probably more importantly I understood and resepected the F104 and flew it accordingly.
    That echoes what was said by a pilot who flew Spitfires in WWII who said that contrary to popular myth about what a world-beating plane they were they could actually be a very difficult plane to fly, or at least to fly well, but if you knew how to fly them they were wonderful planes if you understood and flew within their inherent abilities and limits.

    I suppose that is the same for all planes.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cordoba-Argentina
    Posts
    6,392

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by RepmanHill View Post
    Perhaps lucky, but probably more importantly I understood and resepected the F104 and flew it accordingly.

    My question might sound arrogant but: were all the test pilots of Lochkeed and the USAF killed killed during early career of this aircraft non-intelligent people ?
    I dont think so and I think the danger was something inherent to the aircraft but I would love to hear your comment.


  3. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,087

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    In what must surely be one of the most unusual examples of dedication and enthusiasm, in the mid 1980's an Australian businessman completed construction of a home-built aircraft: a fullscale flyable replica of an F104. He had developed a love for the aircraft through reading everything published about it, and decided to build one for himself, there being no surplus airframes of the type for sale on the civilian market.
    Having spent 5 years or so building the airframe to identical F104G specification, the man lacked only the engine, to complete the aircraft.
    At this point, another businessman, having read of the homebuild, purchased and donated a J79 D jet engine to the homebuilder, and paid for it to be installed.
    Thus, there came to be an aircraft unique: an F104G that had never served in any airforce, and was civilian-owned and built.
    The Australian Government (from memory) let the owner complete Civil Aviation Type Certification Process, and let the owner fly the aircraft to gain its' Airworthiness Certificate. But, as I recall it, the man was told a year or so later that he would NOT be permitted to fly the aircraft in excess of Mach 1, let alone Mach 2. After that, I lost sight of the tale, and have not in the years since seen reference to the world's only civilian owned and built F104G.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,087

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    My question might sound arrogant but: were all the test pilots of Lochkeed and the USAF killed killed during early career of this aircraft non-intelligent people ?
    I dont think so and I think the danger was something inherent to the aircraft but I would love to hear your comment.

    I seem to recall having read that the F104 could, in certain unusual circumstances, enter a "flat-spin", from which it was unable to recover, regardless of the efforts of the pilot to stop the flat spin and resume normal flight.
    It was posited that this is what had happened to Chuck Yeager (albeit at extreme altitude) when he had to eject from the NF104 he had flown.
    I have long pondered the phenomenon called "dynamic coupling", wherein one control surface effectively neutralises another, rendering control of the aircraft impossible.
    This phenomenon is by no means unique to the F104 though. The F4 Phantom II suffered from it at times, the Lockheed P38 Lightning had done so, during WW2. In the case of the P38, recovery was by way of introducing asymmetric thrust, going to full emergency power on the "inside" motor in the flat-spin, thus replacing control asymmetry with thrust asymmetry.
    In the F104, there was no way to introduce either control asymmetry or thrust asymmetry, which would thus render recovery from a flat-spin impossible, as in fact is alleged to have happened to Chuck Yeager.

    If the above was, in fact, the case with the F104 "family" of aircraft, this would tend to support PK's view that the aircraft *did, in rare circumstances* have certain controllability issues.

    Accordingly, RepmanHill, I would be extremely interested to read your views and experiences of the F104.

    I add, for the record, that as a child of 10 or so, I was fascinated by the F104, and thought it one of the finest aircraft ever built by Lockheed, its' operational history nothwithstanding.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    Panzerknacker

    My question might sound arrogant but: were all the test pilots of Lochkeed and the USAF killed killed during early career of this aircraft non-intelligent people ?
    I dont think so and I think the danger was something inherent to the aircraft but I would love to hear your comment.
    By the very definition and their job test pilots were testing the aircraft to find its limits, unfortunately the F104 had a very fine line compared to many other aircraft between its capability and limit so was not very forgiving.
    Working with various airforces I found that many fast jet pilots, who by their nature are thrill seekers, will try to push their aircraft to the limits while training for operations, it is easy to go past the limit whether through pilot error, fod, componant failure, etc.

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cordoba-Argentina
    Posts
    6,392

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    In what must surely be one of the most unusual examples of dedication and enthusiasm, in the mid 1980's an Australian businessman completed construction of a home-built aircraft: a fullscale flyable replica of an F104. He had developed a love for the aircraft through reading everything published about it, and decided to build one for himself, there being no surplus airframes of the type for sale on the civilian market.
    Having spent 5 years or so building the airframe to identical F104G specification, the man lacked only the engine, to complete the aircraft.
    At this point, another businessman, having read of the homebuild, purchased and donated a J79 D jet engine to the homebuilder, and paid for it to be installed.
    Thus, there came to be an aircraft unique: an F104G that had never served in any airforce, and was civilian-owned and built.
    The Australian Government (from memory) let the owner complete Civil Aviation Type Certification Process, and let the owner fly the aircraft to gain its' Airworthiness Certificate. But, as I recall it, the man was told a year or so later that he would NOT be permitted to fly the aircraft in excess of Mach 1, let alone Mach 2. After that, I lost sight of the tale, and have not in the years since seen reference to the world's only civilian owned and built F104G.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

    Interesting history, in the US there was an private F-104 called Red Baron wich scored several recors over the desert.

    http://www.i-f-s.nl/index14.htm

    I sauppose the red tape is bigger in Commonwealth countries if you compare with the good old US aviation tradition.

    By the very definition and their job test pilots were testing the aircraft to find its limits, unfortunately the F104 had a very fine line compared to many other aircraft between its capability and limit so was not very forgiving.
    Working with various airforces I found that many fast jet pilots, who by their nature are thrill seekers, will try to push their aircraft to the limits while training for operations, it is easy to go past the limit whether through pilot error, fod, componant failure, etc.
    I undestand and I agree. Probably you would agree with me on this; the unforgiveness of the Starfigher caused more fatal accidents in the test pilot tribe compared with other supersonic jets of the 50-60s period.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,087

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    Many thanks for that, Panzerknacker: I found those links to be a thoroughly enjoyable set of reads.
    I think the Australian Civil-build F104 is the only known non-factory, from the ground-up, replica built.
    Unfortunately, I do not know the fate of that aircraft, it being that I have not so much as heard the plane mentioned in many many years, nor read of it any any of the usual publications.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    604

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    The F104 was designed by Kelly Johnson at Lockheed:


    Clarence Leonard "Kelly" Johnson (February 27, 1910 – December 21, 1990) was an American system engineer and aeronautical innovator. He earned renown for his contributions to many noteworthy aircraft designs, especially the Lockheed U-2 and SR-71 Blackbird spy planes, but also including the P-38 Lightning, P-80 Shooting Star, and F-104 Starfighter, among others. As a member and first team leader of the Lockheed Skunk Works, Johnson worked for more than four decades and is said to have been an "organizing genius".[1] He played a leading role in the design of over forty aircraft, including several honored with the prestigious Collier Trophy, acquiring a reputation as one of the most talented and prolific aircraft design engineers in the history of aviation. In 2003, as part of its commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brothers' flight, Aviation Week & Space Technology ranked Johnson 8th on its list of the top 100 "most important, most interesting, and most influential people" in the first century of aerospace.[2] Hall Hibbard, Johnson's Lockheed boss, referring to Johnson's Swedish ancestry once remarked to Ben Rich: "That damned Swede can actually see air."[3]

    Johnson led or contributed to the development of a number of aircraft. A few examples illustrate the influence of his work. In the late 1930s, Johnson helped lead the team that developed the P-38 Lightning. Eventually, almost 10,000 of these fighters were built.[6] They played a significant role in World War II. In 1943, responding to United States Army Air Forces' concerns about Germany's development of high performance jet fighters, Johnson proposed to develop a jet airplane in six months. The result, the P-80 Shooting Star, was completed on time and became America's first operational jet fighter. The need to find space to develop the P-80 also led to the creation of the facility that would be later called the Skunk Works.[7] Johnson also led the development of the SR-71 Blackbird family of aircraft. Through a number of significant innovations, Johnson's team was able to create an aircraft that flew so high and fast that it could not be intercepted nor shot down. No other jet airplane has matched the Blackbird's performance.[8]
    In 1955, at the request of the Central Intelligence Agency, Johnson initiated construction of the airbase at Groom Lake, Nevada, later known as Area 51. This project provided a secret location for flight testing the U-2.[9]

    This guy was no slouch and may have been the greatest aircraft designer of all time.:

    Johnson contributed to the design of the following Lockheed aircraft:


    Kelly Johnson with an early variant of the U-2.
    Orion 9D
    Model 10 Electra/XC-35/C-36/Y1C-37
    Model 12 Electra Junior
    Model 14 Super Electra
    Model 18 Lodestar
    PV-1 Ventura/B-37
    P-38 Lightning
    Constellation family
    L-049 Constellation
    L-149 Constellation
    C-69 Constellation
    L-649 Constellation
    L-749 Constellation
    C-121A-B Constellation
    PO-1W/WV-1 Warning Star
    L-1049 Super Constellation
    C-121C-J/R7O/R7V Constellation
    PO-2W/WV-2/WV-3/EC-121 Warning Star
    YC-121F/R7V-2 Constellation
    L-1649 Starliner
    F-80 Shooting Star, the first successful American jet fighter;
    T-33 and TV-2 trainers
    P2V Neptune
    XF-90
    F-94 Starfire
    X-7
    F-104 Starfighter
    F-117A Nighthawk
    C-130 Hercules
    U-2
    Blackbird family: A-12, YF-12, SR-71, M-21, and D-21
    JetStar/C-140

    There's an SR71 Blackbird parked on the apron of the Lackland AFB outdoor nuseum here in San Antonio. This is easily the most impressive aircraft I've ever seen.

    As for the Starfighter, notice how long this aircraft remained in service with the USAF and NASA:

    The Lockheed F-104 Starfighter is a single-engine, high-performance, supersonic interceptor aircraft originally developed for the United States Air Force (USAF) by Lockheed. One of the Century Series of aircraft, it served with the USAF from 1958 until 1969, and continued with Air National Guard units until it was phased out in 1975. The National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) flew a small mixed fleet of F-104 types in supersonic flight tests and spaceflight programs until they were retired in 1994.[2]
    Last edited by royal744; 08-31-2013 at 01:20 PM.

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    604

    Default Re: F-104, the widowmaker.

    This is the man who Kelly Johnson, the Starfighter's creator, turned to to keep them flying all over the world.

    A tribute to Ben McAvoy, Mr. Starfighter
    Whoever would dial the telephone number 274-1490 in Phoenix and listened to the answering machine, would hear the harsh reply: "We're not here, but if you leave a number, maybe we'll call you back!" So much for the friendly part of Ben McAvoy. If you wanted to talk with Ben about the Starfighter, you could be sure, you'd get a callback. All other things were not so important. His life was consumed by the F-104 Starfighter, whose 50th anniversary he only survived by a few weeks. As a real highlight, on 13 March 2004, Ben had the honor, on the 50th Anniversary of the F-104 Flight Test Reunion in the Lancaster Elks club in Palmdale, California, to speak on the highlights of the world-wide operations of the Starfighter. He gave stories of business, bureaucracy, admiration and technical problems of his love. An airplane of which over 2500 were built over the years and flown with love and enthusiasm. And Ben was there, from its beginning in Palmdale until 1981 as Lockheed's representative assigned with the German training program at Luke AFB.

    In nearly thirty years as Lockheed technical advisor, Ben McAvoy helped service all models of the Starfighter and watched with attention. From the first airplanes of the A series, to the F-104C's in combat in Viet Nam, to the F and G models of the Military Assistance Program (MAP) and to the 916 Starfighters for Luftwaffe and Marine, Ben was there.

    Ben McAvoy was born in 1932 in Iowa, Kansas, a town in the middle west of the USA. After high school, He enlisted in the USAF. His goal was to become an aircraft mechanic on the legendary P-51 Mustang fighter. During his time in the Air Force, he became a technician on the F-86 and after four years of service he came to the decision: Jet Fighters! When Ben signed up with Lockheed in 1956, the secret Starfighter program was in its final stage of development. Lockheed's legendary airplane engineer, Kelly Johnson, had filtered out two basic demands for the future American air superiority fighter from the experiences of the pilots of the Korean War: Speed and acceleration. When he presented the XF-104 to the first test pilot Tony LeVier in 1954, the experienced pilot only had one question: "Where are the wings?" However the test flights proved that Kelly Johnson had succeeded in developing an airplane, which could reach more than twice the speed of sound in horizontal flight, at altitudes of over 100.000 feet, and in less time than every other aircraft in the whole world. Ben had found his life's-task. Technical support of the Starfighter.

    After his training in Palmdale, Ben's first assignment was as aircraft mechanic at Eglin AFB, Florida and Duluth, Minnesota. In 1958 he participated in the promotional tour of the new US fighter to several European countries including the World Exhibition in Brussels and took care of "his" Starfighter. As a result, Ben was promoted to Lockheed Field Representative for the Starfighter and assisted in the F-104 set-up in Spain and in the Federal Republic of Germany. In 1961 Lockheed sent their Starfighter expert to Nörvenich AB, where the Luftwaffe was beginning its first training program with the new combat aircraft. Ben advised the mechanics about the refinements of the new starfighter and got, beside admiration, some critics as well, because of his superior system knowledge. The intelligent pilots appreciated it and were grateful when they had landed somewhere and after a telephone call with Ben in Nörvenich, the 104s were ready to fly again with just a few tricks. Every now and then Ben was also used as flying mechanic, in order to solve problems on the spot. He could hardly hide from the question: "What did you do with my airplane?" As a civilian worker Ben showed little shyness at ranks and military position. After a problem was solved, a lot of pilots were advised "to take better care better of Ben's airplane in the future".

    1964 Ben returned to George AFB, Ca. In short order he was moved again with the F-104 C's to DaNang AB South Vietnam, in order to provide technical assistance for the first combat missions of the Starfighter. As he did in Nörvenich Germany, Ben became the central point of contact relating to the systems of the F-104. Throughout the employment the Starfighter in Vietnam, it was occasionally evaluated critically, even though the numbers stated something else. Over 10,000 missions with a combat ready rate of over 80%. Acknowledged positively by the escorted combat aircraft and also by Forward Air Controllers, who needed the speed, the F104 supplied fighter-bomber fire support to the constantly changing fighting in air-to-surface employment. Although the Starfighter did not book a single air victory, it would fulfill its task of air superiority. The MiGs preferred, in order to avoid the Starfighter, to stay out of its way. After the end of the initial employment of the F 104 in Vietnam, in 1966 the Starfighters were again sent to Southeast Asia. At the end of 1966 a squadron was sent to Udorn Thailand, and of course with Ben McAvoy as Lockheed Field Service Representative. With the experiences of the combat operations Ben returned in 1967 to the USA and became technical advisor for the F-104C and D in San Juan Puerto Rico. Then in 1969 his employer Lockheed put him in charge of maintenance activities of the German-American training program for the Starfighter at Luke AFB, Arizona.


    With a short interruption, 1972 - 1973, when Ben supported the build up of the Greek Air Force in Athens, Ben was "Mr. Starfighter" for the program at Luke. Until 1981 he cared for the German F-104 G Starfighters at Luke as Lockheeds Tech Rep. For a total of 10 years he became part of the most successful binational training program, the German Air Force and the German Navy had ever accomplished. Whenever questions were asked about the Starfighter, from night bombing to Dart Tow, Ben was the first one to be asked. His knowledge of the airplane and its abilities brought not the question whether a certain profile was feasible, but how it had to be flown. Ben knew about the potential of "his" Starfighter. But not only were the big decisions given to Ben, every now and then it paid off for changing military commanders to have a man on hand with Bens expertise. Ben thought it was necessary after 10 years of flying operations at Luke, to remind the flyers by writing about the "Operating characteristics of the F/TF 104 / J-79 during high ambient temperatures". Would "T2 Reset" still be a secret? Ben became acquainted with the Germans, and therefore the respect grew. They were German airplanes, but somehow all were Ben's own children, for whom he felt fully responsible. Even after years of thundering start and engine whistles on the approach Ben had a reason to look into the sky, in order to follow his Starfighter.

    In 1981 Lockheed sent Ben back again to the Skunkworks in Palmdale Ca. His expertise was again needed for another secret project of the USAF, the F-117 Nighthawk fighter. Sadly Ben left his beloved Starfighter and contributed to the operational success of the F-117. In 1987 Ben McAvoy retired after 31 years with Lockheed. He could now devote himself totally again to his Starfighter. As technical advisor, this time freelance, he gave his advice and actively helped to make old Starfighters airworthy again, and worked to keep the few flying ones still airworthy. In 1976 Ben helped Daryl Greenamyer successfully establish a new low-altitude flight speed record of 988 miles per hour with his privately built F-104. Ben also advised museums and helped owners of private Starfighters on how to maintain their aircraft.

    Of the 50 years of the F-104 Starfighter Ben McAvoy enjoyed 48 years. Therefore it was never a question for him to be a member of the Starfighter organization, the Cactus Starfighter Squadron. Although only in the rear seat, at least that's what is known, Ben collected sufficient flying hours, to take center stage after night flights and at the bar. Kelly Johnson, who conceived and designed the Starfighter in 1953, once said. "Ben McAvoy knows more about the F-104 Starfighter than I do." Well said.

    Ben McAvoy passed away on 14. May 2004. On 12.June 2004 a funeral service was held in his house with friends, acquaintances and the Cactus Starfighter Squadron. His ashes were scattered into the wind on 18.July 2004 over Cold Lake, Canada. From an F-104 Starfighter of course.

    © written by Karl "Charlie" Georg Boettcher, regional leader USA/CA of the Cactus Starfighter Squadron

    F-104RB "Red Baron" "Privately-built" Starfighter (from scrap)

    Another civilian Starfighter, called the F-104RB (for Manfred von Richthofen, the "Red Baron"), was used to set the low-level speed record in October 1977 by world-famous air racer Darryl Greenamyer. Greenamyer built his F-104 over a period of 12 years from parts scrounged from various places, including a "borrowed" J79-17/1 turbojet from a McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom, which developed over 2,000 pounds more thrust than the standard J79-19 engine. Greenamyer attacked the record at Mud Lake, near Tonapah, Nevada, and beat the previous low-level speed record by recording a top speed of 988.26 mph (1,590.41 km/h) after five passes over the dry lake. He remained supersonic for most of the 20-minute flight, and rarely rose much higher than 100 feet above the lake bed. Several months later, while practicing for an attempt on the world absolute altitude record, he was forced to eject when his landing gear failed to extend; a belly landing in the F-104 was considered too dangerous to attempt.
    Last edited by royal744; 09-02-2013 at 12:08 PM.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •