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Thread: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

  1. #16
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    I dont think pacifying Iraq was ever a goal though. All thats happened is that Iran has been the biggest winner out of the whole affair, which youve touched on there. The whole reason for the adventure in Iraq was weapons of mass destruction after all, with a side order of democracy to go.

    However, the war has brought about the rapid introduction in some areas, my own speciality of airpower has had more than a few innovations in targeting and air to ground data feeds.

    Then theres the more simple stuff like the introduction of improved body armour and small improvements in small arms, look at the SA-80 for example, a much improved and more reliable weapon.

    Battle experience may not be as important as we think though as well trained men who havent had tht experience tend to do just fine when the time comes. You only have to look at Normandy to see that it was often the raw divisions that performed well for the Allies, with some of the battle hardened ones being some what casualty shy as they knew what was coming if they pushed too hard.

    Difficult to predict what will become of Iraq, fundamental Islamist state? Democracy? Something inbetween? I predict though that Iraq isnt going to be what the US and UK thought it would be in march 2003.

    One things for sure, I wont be going back to Iraq again, well be gone by july this year and have already handed over our bit to the US.

  2. #17
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    Question Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Yeah, I was about to post that they should just buy a bunch of MP-5s off the shelf, or issue an improved M-4 with the glitches solved, and be done with it...
    Nick, what I've not understood from this thread is why a simple solution, such as an American copy of the Czech Skorpion tankcrew pdw isn't adopted, even if in a new calibre?

    Is it simply politics and parochialism, some sorted of introverted "not buy foreign" mentality?

    I have no wish to be critical, as God knows, NZ is as guilty of mismanaged equipment procurement policies.
    I'm just genuinely at a loss to understand that which should be a perfectly locical solution: copy in either the US or Israel the Skorpion design in a calibre that is suited to the envisaged application.

    Kind Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
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    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
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    ^Uyraell^

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  3. #18
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    Quote Originally Posted by Uyraell View Post
    Nick, what I've not understood from this thread is why a simple solution, such as an American copy of the Czech Skorpion tankcrew pdw isn't adopted, even if in a new calibre?

    Is it simply politics and parochialism, some sorted of introverted "not buy foreign" mentality?

    I have no wish to be critical, as God knows, NZ is as guilty of mismanaged equipment procurement policies.
    I'm just genuinely at a loss to understand that which should be a perfectly locical solution: copy in either the US or Israel the Skorpion design in a calibre that is suited to the envisaged application.

    Kind Regards, Uyraell.
    Well, I think the Americans don't just want to copy a foreign product, they want to 1-Up it with a product of their own...
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    Well, I think the Americans don't just want to copy a foreign product, they want to 1-Up it with a product of their own...
    But that's precisely where I'm lost in this: IIRC when the Skorpion became known, the Tank Corp types in both the UK and US Armies were extremely interested in having their own equivalent weapon. The Bundeswehr certainly was, which AIUI is what led to the HK PDW series weapons. The Israelis simply produced the mini-Uzi and the micro-Uzi for use in the crew-Pdw role, though admittedly favouring the firepower (getting rounds out) side of the equation rather than the penetration power (stopping the enemy soldier) side.

    If recall serves, the Calico, though dismissed on the basis of insufficient development (despite leading to the Bizon design in the USSR) was originally developed as a crew Pdw firearm.

    Hence, I'm either missing some significant detail, or have lost sight of a relevant factor somewhere in all this. Remembering too, that Eugene Stoner had an initial concept in the same role, which by various models evolved into the M4 and xm177 et-al.

    Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  5. #20
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    The US Army uses two Belgian machine-guns, Italian pistols, a German sub-machine-gun, and a Swedish anti-tank weapon...

  6. #21
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    As Nick implies, the days of "not invented here" are long, long gone.
    1884 electric cartridge. Look similar to anything?

  7. #22
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    Question Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    I Apologise if I seem to have been disrespectful : That certainly was not my intent.

    I'm quite simply baffled as to an apparently available and seemingly realistically simple solution being ignored.

    I spent considerable time during the late 1970's and early 1980's following up on various compact firearms, having myself been rather intrigued with the Skorpion design.

    Hence I am curious as to why an equivalent has yet to be adopted by both US and UK forces some thirty years later.

    Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  8. #23
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    The UK currently uses an EXTREMELY short carbine version of the SA-80 family for some uses (IIRC it's issued to either tank crew or Apache aircrew, can't quite remember).
    The weapon is about 2/3 of the length of the standard L85A2....
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

  9. #24
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    The UK currently uses an EXTREMELY short carbine version of the SA-80 family for some uses (IIRC it's issued to either tank crew or Apache aircrew, can't quite remember).
    The weapon is about 2/3 of the length of the standard L85A2....
    I've just seen a picture of one of the short SA 80-s you refer to, Pdf27.
    Yes, that weapon is damn short, though still larger than the Skorpion or Mini-Uzi. Then again, I'm taking the SA 80-short (aka L22_A1{?}) as being still able to fire the standard rifle bullet where the other two fire pistol rounds.
    In which case,it would seem that the SA 80-short is a reasonable compromise.

    Thank you for pointing it out.

    Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  10. #25
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    Incidentally, I've read that cut down versions of M-14s in full caliber 7.62mm NATO are popular with some US special operators called the M-1A (?)...


  11. #26
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    Default Re: US Army Still Seeks "Subcompact Rifle"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Incidentally, I've read that cut down versions of M-14s in full caliber 7.62mm NATO are popular with some US special operators called the M-1A (?)...
    The M1A is actually a civilian rifle made by Springfield Armory and is just a modified M14. The rifle in the image is called a SOCOM 16 which itself is a shortened Springfield M1A. I haven't heard of them being used by the military but it isn't hard to imagine someone using one with the resurgence of the harder hitting .308 (7.62x51mm NATO) round by military forces.

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