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Thread: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

  1. #46
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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    "The German Army and Genocide," Omar Bartov (or ANY of his works). [Camus, well played, brother.] K

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    Another fine work: "Hitler Strikes Poland: Blitzkrieg, Ideology, and Atrocity." Contains much about the Polish resistance - a factor central to the Wehrmacht's thinking and actions. K

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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    I suprised:I think first time the SD do the executions or the SS.
    I saw a video on the net from the execution and soldiers from the Lufwtwaffe do the executions,clearly saw the Luftwaffe collar tabs

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by imi View Post
    I suprised:I think first time the SD do the executions or the SS.
    I saw a video on the net from the execution and soldiers from the Lufwtwaffe do the executions,clearly saw the Luftwaffe collar tabs
    Not really all that surprising to me. The Luftwaffe Field Divisions were generally regarded as very poor quality combat troops, so they were regularly issued occupational orders. This of course also included hunting down partisans and punishing them. This includes executions.

    Of course, as always, the number of actual 'partisans' among those executed is questionable.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    I'm sorry I haven't read all replies to this thread and this is my first post. I guess a little about me..my father is English and grew up in the blitz. We all currently live in Australia where most people know very little about WW2 in general. My understanding is that the British listening in on Trent Park basically proved that the generals knew about the mass murders. I think there is a bit of a myth around these days to the effect that the Wehrmacht did nothing and it was only SS divisions that committed the murders. Having said that, it would seem that only certain elements of the Wehrmacht took part (how many we will probably never know). But there were some commanders who made it plain to the soldiers under their command that they wanted nothing to do with that kind of thing...others who didn't. Of course in any war you get people who take advantage of an opportunity to rape,pillage and kill if that's their desire. War tends to bring that out in people. I would argue however, that given the power that nazism had over people and the indoctrination, that you can't blame the average soldier for having negative feelings towards other races/minorities. The fact that Germany has apologised should count for something..Once again, first post and sorry if I offended anyone.

  6. #51
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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by coldie View Post
    I'm sorry I haven't read all replies to this thread and this is my first post. I guess a little about me..my father is English and grew up in the blitz. We all currently live in Australia where most people know very little about WW2 in general. My understanding is that the British listening in on Trent Park basically proved that the generals knew about the mass murders. I think there is a bit of a myth around these days to the effect that the Wehrmacht did nothing and it was only SS divisions that committed the murders. Having said that, it would seem that only certain elements of the Wehrmacht took part (how many we will probably never know). But there were some commanders who made it plain to the soldiers under their command that they wanted nothing to do with that kind of thing...others who didn't. Of course in any war you get people who take advantage of an opportunity to rape,pillage and kill if that's their desire. War tends to bring that out in people. I would argue however, that given the power that nazism had over people and the indoctrination, that you can't blame the average soldier for having negative feelings towards other races/minorities. The fact that Germany has apologised should count for something..Once again, first post and sorry if I offended anyone.
    I don't know if your post was prompted by the same television documentary I saw last night on 'Wehrmacht' complicity in crimes against humanity which included Trent Park eavesdropping as part of the evidence, but it was an eye-opener for me in putting forward compelling evidence, including recollections of Heer participants, that the Heer was heavily involved in such crimes as either primary actors or supporters by providing security cordons around execution sites etc.

    Then again, as the program made the usual mistake of thinking that the Heer was the Wehrmacht one has to wonder just how deep and accurate the research and presentation was.
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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Then again, as the program made the usual mistake of thinking that the Heer was the Wehrmacht one has to wonder just how deep and accurate the research and presentation was.
    I still can't understand you point RS. If the Heer was a Land componet ( and biggest one) of Werhmach - doest it mean the Wermacht has no deel at all to the crimes that Heer commited? It sound like while Heer were deeply involved in ,say Holocaust in the East, the Wehrmacht just stay behind and look around

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    I still can't understand you point RS. If the Heer was a Land componet ( and biggest one) of Werhmach - doest it mean the Wermacht has no deel at all to the crimes that Heer commited? It sound like while Heer were deeply involved in ,say Holocaust in the East, the Wehrmacht just stay behind and look around
    Apart from the distinction between Wehrmacht and Heer, a distinction needs to be made between (a) the Wehrmacht, which was the combined German defence force comprising the army (Heer), navy (Kriegsmarine) and air force (Luftwaffe) and (b) the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW) which was the general staff controlling the Wehrmacht.

    As the Wehrmacht was the combined forces it's difficult to see how the navy would have had much involvement in atrocities in the East, although perhaps it had river boats and other units which might have participated in some fashion. Although the air force had a large presence in the East, I don't know that there was much need for it in committing atrocities, although perhaps it might have contributed in some way by assisting cordons around killing grounds etc.

    The OKW has a more direct line of command responsibility for the Heer as one of the forces under its control, but my understanding is that the Heer in the East operated pretty much free of direct OKW control. It's not an area I've ever looked into, but I wouldn't be surprised if some responsibility for atrocities could be laid at the OKW's door for transmitting orders about atrocities etc to the Heer in the East. Someone else on the forum probably has information on this.
    ..
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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    Rising Sun, yes it was the SBS program 'Wehrmacht' complicity in crimes against humanity that prompted me to post. If I'd bothered looking closely I would've seen that this post fizzled out in 2010 but I guess it's still a topic worthy of discussion. All I can say is it was very cunning of the British the way they eavesdropped on those captive German officers..I think I would've preferred to have heard the real voices with a translation rather than the actors we got but was still an interesting watch.

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    Default Re: Wehrmacht Complicity in the Holocaust in Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by coldie View Post
    All I can say is it was very cunning of the British the way they eavesdropped on those captive German officers.
    I think the Trent Park re-enactments were taken from, or filmed during, another documentary in the same series which focused solely on the Trent Park eavesdropping. It was televised some time in the last two or three years on SBS and provided information I wasn't previously aware of, although I expect that people seriously interested in British intelligence work would have known about it.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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