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Thread: Was Holocaust part of WWII?

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    Default Was Holocaust part of WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    I'd exterminate them, but there's a difference between extermination an nest of ants and a people...
    In respect of your graphic signature where do the five million plus Jews who died in World War II figure, are they counted in the Axis or Allied dead? That is are they included in the 11,000,000 Axis or 17,000,000 Allied dead.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    Last edited by Adrian Wainer; 03-13-2009 at 06:46 AM.
    "Ik val aan, volg mij!" Schout-bij-nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman February 28 1942.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wainer View Post
    In respect of your graphic signature where do the five million plus Jews who died in World War II figure, are they counted in the Axis or Allied dead? That is are they included in the 11,000,000 Axis or 17,000,000 Allied dead.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    Five million plus Jews didn't die in WWII, in the sense of war deaths.

    They died during it, and for reasons and from activities not related to the deaths in combat
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Five million plus Jews didn't die in WWII, in the sense of war deaths.

    They died during it, and for reasons and from activities not related to the deaths in combat
    They were not in the main in uniform and armed but the Third Reich was at War with them, hence they should be included in combat deaths, in the graphic which I have referred too.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    Last edited by Adrian Wainer; 03-13-2009 at 09:35 AM.
    "Ik val aan, volg mij!" Schout-bij-nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman February 28 1942.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    I did not include the Holocaust victims in my signature, as I support the same stance as Rising Sun*, that is that the Holocaust and the war were two different events taking place at the same time.

    While it is true that the latter enhanced the former, they were still somewhat independent from each other. Even if Germany had not gone to war, the Holocaust would have still taken place, except instead of international victims, the murdered would have been purely German and Austrian.

    I chose only to include dead soldiers into my signature, excluding both civilian and holocaust victims.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    I did not include the Holocaust victims in my signature, as I support the same stance as Rising Sun*, that is that the Holocaust and the war were two different events taking place at the same time.
    Are you arguing that the extermination of the Jews was not a War aim?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    While it is true that the latter enhanced the former, they were still somewhat independent from each other. Even if Germany had not gone to war, the Holocaust would have still taken place, except instead of international victims, the murdered would have been purely German and Austrian.
    What is the difference if a War is being waged within the frontiers of a country and if the War is being waged outside the frontiers of a country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    I chose only to include dead soldiers into my signature, excluding both civilian and holocaust victims.
    So civilians murdered by the Nazis are irrelevant?

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    "Ik val aan, volg mij!" Schout-bij-nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman February 28 1942.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wainer View Post
    They were not in the main in uniform and armed but the Third Reich was at War with them, hence they should be included in combat deaths, in the graphic which I have referred too.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    You are just trolling here (as you are in previous and subsequent posts) because you know full well that there was nothing approximating a war between the Third Reich and Jews, nor was there any more reason to include Jews in combat or warlike operation deaths than there was to include the hundreds of thousands of Russians who died in German captivity as combat or warlike operation deaths.

    As your recent reappearance on this forum has been notable primarily for your overt trolling, and as you have been on this board before and know how it works, I am going to abandon my normal practice of giving an informal warning, in the nature of a shot across the bows, before giving a formal warning.

    You have just incurred a formal warning which will be recorded in your personal profile.

    Ignore it and you will incur as many infraction points as are appropriate to your offence.

    If you continue your trolling you will be amazed by how quickly I shall ramp up your penalties so that you will pick up enough infraction points to be catapulted into the cyber ether in just a few more trolling posts. You could manage it one intemperate post, if you like martyrdom.

    Your future on this board is entirely in your own hands.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wainer View Post
    Are you arguing that the extermination of the Jews was not a War aim?
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. It was a political aim, not a war aim. They didn't wage war against to get more Jews to kill. They waged for out of a hunger for more Power in the East, and because war was declared on them in the West. The Holocaust is more of an Interior affair. Don't confuse the Holocaust with war crimes.

    What is the difference if a War is being waged within the frontiers of a country and if the War is being waged outside the frontiers of a country.
    The Holocaust wasn't a war against the Jews, it was an extermination campaign. A war would require them to be organized with a political agenda and -most importantly- a serious fight. Most of them were simply kidnapped and murdered by the Nazis. Even though there was armed Resistance, it was often unorganized and relatively insignificant. If there was a war, it would suggest that at least some of the murders were legal, and I hope you aren't suggesting that.

    So civilians murdered by the Nazis are irrelevant?
    They, as well as the civilians murdered by the Allies, are irrelevant to my signature which remarks dead soldiers. If you want to make a signature remembering the civilian deaths, feel free to do so, nobody hinders you and if you want I can even help you with it. But my signature remembers those that fell in battle.

    I am neither saying that they aren't worth remarking nor that they insignificant. They just aren't part of what I wanted to show in my sig, case closed.
    Last edited by Schuultz; 03-13-2009 at 10:40 AM.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. It was a political aim, not a war aim. They didn't wage war against to get more Jews to kill. They waged for out of a hunger for more Power in the East, and because war was declared on them in the West. The Holocaust is more of an Interior affair. Don't confuse the Holocaust with war crimes.



    The Holocaust wasn't a war against the Jews, it was an extermination campaign. A war would require them to be organized with a political agenda and -most importantly- a serious fight. Most of them were simply kidnapped and murdered by the Nazis. Even though there was armed Resistance, it was often unorganized and relatively insignificant. If there was a war, it would suggest that at least some of the murders were legal, and I hope you aren't suggesting that.



    They, as well as the civilians murdered by the Allies, are irrelevant to my signature which remarks dead soldiers. If you want to make a signature remembering the civilian deaths, feel free to do so, nobody hinders you and if you want I can even help you with it. But my signature remembers those that fell in battle.

    I am neither saying that they aren't worth remarking nor that they insignificant. They just aren't part of what I wanted to show in my sig, case closed.
    Agreed, and correct, in every respect.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    You are just trolling here (as you are in previous and subsequent posts) because you know full well that there was nothing approximating a war between the Third Reich and Jews, nor was there any more reason to include Jews in combat or warlike operation deaths than there was to include the hundreds of thousands of Russians who died in German captivity as combat or warlike operation deaths.
    What is often described as trolling in forums, is often in fact nothing more than than the personal opinions of posters which happen to be at variance with the personal opinions of the site moderators. There was not a War between the Jews and the Third Reich in the conventional sense and it would be hard to argue that there was a War in even the unconventional sense, however given the nature of World War II and the fact the extermination of the Jews was a major War aim of the Third Reich, there is reason for legitimate concern about signature, which I referred to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun*
    As your recent reappearance on this forum has been notable primarily for your overt trolling, and as you have been on this board before and know how it works, I am going to abandon my normal practice of giving an informal warning, in the nature of a shot across the bows, before giving a formal warning.
    You can accuse me of trolling whatever that is, whether such an accusation would stand up in a court of law is an entirely different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun*
    You have just incurred a formal warning which will be recorded in your personal profile.
    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun*
    Ignore it and you will incur as many infraction points as are appropriate to your offence.
    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun*
    If you continue your trolling you will be amazed by how quickly I shall ramp up your penalties so that you will pick up enough infraction points to be catapulted into the cyber ether in just a few more trolling posts. You could manage it one intemperate post, if you like martyrdom.
    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun*
    Your future on this board is entirely in your own hands.
    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    Last edited by Adrian Wainer; 03-13-2009 at 10:58 AM.
    "Ik val aan, volg mij!" Schout-bij-nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman February 28 1942.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wainer View Post
    What is often described as trolling in forums, is often in fact nothing more than than the personal opinions of posters which happen to be at variance with the personal opinions of the site moderators. There was not a War between the Jews and the Third Reich in the conventional sense and it would be hard to argue that there was a War in even the unconventional sense, however given the nature of World War II and the fact the extermination of the Jews was a major War aim of the Third Reich, there is reason for legitimate concern about signature, which I referred to.



    You can accuse me of trolling whatever that is, whether such an accusation would stand up in a court of law is an entirely different matter.



    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.



    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.



    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.



    You can do precisely what you wish to do, whether your actions constitute fair and reasonable judgment, that is an entirely different matter.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    Noted.

    I'd suggest you note mine, above.

    There won't be a second warning.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 03-13-2009 at 11:02 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    Don't confuse the Holocaust with war crimes.
    Was there a "holocaust" trial of Germany's War Leaders?

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    "Ik val aan, volg mij!" Schout-bij-nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman February 28 1942.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Yes, it was a part of the Nuremberg Trials. There were leaders found guilty for war crimes (murder of POWs, civilians) as well as crimes against the humanity (Genocide = Holocaust), some where only found guilty of the former, some only of the latter, some of both.

    So your argument really has pretty much no ground to stand on, as even the courts saw it as two different things.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    Yes, that's what I'm saying. It was a political aim, not a war aim. They didn't wage war against to get more Jews to kill. They waged for out of a hunger for more Power in the East, and because war was declared on them in the West. The Holocaust is more of an Interior affair. Don't confuse the Holocaust with war crimes.
    Since Adolf Hitler was the Third Reich and killing Jews was a priority to him, I am somewhat confused how to make a neat differentiation between a War aim and a Political aim. Well in so far as one can understand Hitler's rantings, he regarded the USSR as part of the International Jewish Conspiracy and was in part waging War on the USSR because he regarded the USSR as a Jewish State entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    The Holocaust wasn't a war against the Jews, it was an extermination campaign. A war would require them to be organized with a political agenda and -most importantly- a serious fight. Most of them were simply kidnapped and murdered by the Nazis. Even though there was armed Resistance, it was often unorganized and relatively insignificant. If there was a war, it would suggest that at least some of the murders were legal, and I hope you aren't suggesting that.
    It was a campaign of extermination against the Jews, I think we are are discussing whether it was a war or a political initiative. I have never sought to imply legality on the part of the Third Reich in its actions against the Jews. I regard the entire War conducted by the Third Reich in World War II as an illegal War and hence when uniformed military personnel of the Third Reich such as Luftwaffe fighter pilots in Me Bf 109s shot down British Spitfires attacking German bombers, I regard that as illegal killing. The Jews in Europe did not even have the military capability of a small country like Denmark and the Third Reich picked a fight with them, not the other way round and the Third Reich was careful to lull the Jews in to a false sense of security about its intentions towards them, so they were not even in a position to offer what little resistance they could have offered, if they had been aware of their intended fate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    They, as well as the civilians murdered by the Allies, are irrelevant to my signature which remarks dead soldiers. If you want to make a signature remembering the civilian deaths, feel free to do so, nobody hinders you and if you want I can even help you with it. But my signature remembers those that fell in battle.
    What do you mean civilians murdered by the Allies? There are problems with your signature, if I was to create a similar signature, it would have problems too, two wrongs do not make a right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    I am neither saying that they aren't worth remarking nor that they insignificant. They just aren't part of what I wanted to show in my sig, case closed.
    There are more people in the world than you and it might not be unreasonable to bear that in mind.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    Last edited by Adrian Wainer; 03-13-2009 at 12:49 PM.
    "Ik val aan, volg mij!" Schout-bij-nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman February 28 1942.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Wainer View Post
    Since Adolf Hitler was the Third Reich and killing Jews was a priority to him, I am somewhat confused how to make a neat differentiation between a War aim and a Political aim. Well in so far as one can understand Hitler's rantings, he regarded the USSR as part of the International Jewish Conspiracy and was in part waging War on the USSR because he regarded the USSR as a Jewish State entity.
    Adolf Hitler was not the Third Reich. Adolf Hitler was its dictator, but that doesn't mean that the high Officers and Ministers didn't commit actions of their own and had personal agendas. Even if, through his position as a Dictator, everything came back to his orders, there are still differences between Interior policies and Exterior policies.

    It was a campaign of extermination against the Jews, I think were are discussing whether it was a war or a political initiative. I have never sought to imply legality on the part of the Third Reich in its actions against the Jews. I regard the entire War conducted by the Third Reich in World War II as an illegal War and hence when uniformed military personnel of the Third Reich such as Luftwaffe fighter pilots in Me Bf 109s shot down British Spitfires attacking German bombers, I regard that as illegal killing.
    That is your position, but it is not a valid legal position. By declaring war against Germany, France, England and the US automatically made it legal for German fighter pilots to shoot them down, German soldiers to shoot their soldiers, and German tanks to shoot their tanks. It was war, whether Germany declared it against them, too, or not, as in a way the Western Allies started the war against Germany by invading them. (This is not saying that Germany did not provoke it through its invasion of Poland)

    The Third Reich was careful to lull the Jews in to a false sense of security about its intentions towards them, so they were not even in a position to offer what little resistance they could have offered, if they had been aware of their intended fate.
    You're kidding me, right? The Nazi government started introducing anti-Semitic laws as soon as they got to power in 1933. The actual Holocaust did not start until the second half of their time in power. By then, many Jews had already left Germany because they could foresee what all the policies were slowly leading towards. What they could not foresee was the quick and complete defeat of almost every bordering nation, so many were caught in countries like Holland, Belgium and Poland after their quick capitulations.

    What do you mean civilians murdered by the Allies?
    What I mean by civilians murdered by the Allies are Axis civilians killed by the advancing armies as well as the bombing raids on the cities, which are quite numerous, too.

    There are problems with your signature, if I was to create a similar signature, it would have problems too, two wrongs do not make a right.
    No, YOU have problems with my signature, and so far you're the only one who had this problem. You might want to apply to yourself what you said next:

    There are more people in the world than you and it might not be unreasonable to bear that in mind.
    I am very well aware of that, but this is my signature based on my opinions, and I believe I made those clear.
    Last edited by Schuultz; 03-13-2009 at 11:55 AM.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    Adolf Hitler was not the Third Reich.
    Adolf Hitler was the Third Reich.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    Adolf Hitler was its dictator, but that doesn't mean that the high Officers and Ministers didn't commit actions of their own and had personal agendas.
    I never said otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    Even if, through his position as a Dictator, everything came back to his orders, there are still differences between Interior policies and Exterior policies.
    Your point being?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    That is your position, but it is not a valid legal position. By declaring war against Germany, France, England and the US automatically made it legal for German fighter pilots to shoot them down, German soldiers to shoot their soldiers, and German tanks to shoot their tanks. It was war, whether Germany declared it against them, too, or not, as in a way the Western Allies started the war against Germany by invading them. (This is not saying that Germany did not provoke it through its invasion of Poland)
    Declaring war on a country does not legalize a war, which is being conducted by the country which the War has been declared against, when that War is an illegal War. Having as a War aim genocidal extermination, places the Third Reich in the position of conducting an illegal War. Hence members of the German military were engaged in an illegal War, whether they were Luftwaffe pilots bombing British cities or camp guards at an extermination concentration camp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    You're kidding me, right? The Nazi government started introducing anti-Semitic laws as soon as they got to power in 1933. The actual Holocaust did not start until the second half of their time in power. By then, many Jews had already left Germany because they could foresee what all the policies were slowly leading towards. What they could not foresee was the quick and complete defeat of almost every bordering nation, so many were caught in countries like Holland, Belgium and Poland after their quick capitulations.
    No I am not kidding you at all. The Nazis went to some considerable efforts to deceive Jews as to what they intended to do to them, for example the showpiece concentration camp of Theresienstadt intended to be featured in the Nazi propaganda film, Der Führer schenkt den Juden eine Stadt The Fuhrer gives the Jews a City.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresi...entration_camp

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    What I mean by civilians murdered by the Allies are Axis civilians killed by the advancing armies as well as the bombing raids on the cities, which are quite numerous, too.
    So are are you saying then that, German housewives who were killed by British and American bombing raids on German cities but who were very happy to see Warsaw, Rotterdam and London Blitzed by the Luftwaffe and the German Jews treated like dirt are the same as German veteran Jewish frontline soldiers from the Kaiser's Imperial Army who were decorated in World War One for bravery for fighting for the fatherland, who were sent to the concentration camps to be gassed by the Third Reich, were the same way murdered?


    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz
    No, YOU have problems with my signature, and so far you're the only one who had this problem. You might want to apply to yourself what you said next:



    I am very well aware of that, but this is my signature based on my opinions, and I believe I made those clear.
    Just because I may have been the one to say it, does not mean that I am the only person who would hold such an opinion.

    Best and Warm Regards
    Adrian Wainer
    Last edited by Adrian Wainer; 03-13-2009 at 01:05 PM.
    "Ik val aan, volg mij!" Schout-bij-nacht Karel Willem Frederik Marie Doorman February 28 1942.

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