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Thread: Allied ≠ Russians?

  1. #1
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    Default Allied ≠ Russians?

    Hey everybody,

    Just a general thought I had:

    Did anybody notice how it seems to be relatively common that people, when using the term 'Allies' in WW2, only seem to think of the US/UK/France instead of US/UK/France/USSR?

    I repeatedly catch myself choosing to say 'Russia' or 'the Soviets' instead of simply saying Allies - of whom they were a part of.

    It's not only trying to be specific, it's simply a subconscious feeling that those two are different, and I can't explain why, really.

    Now, I guess it might be part of my German viewpoint, but what about you guys? When you refer to the Allies, are you truly meaning everybody, or do you - subconsciously - only think of the Western Powers. I'm talking about General Usage here, not political/historical correct talk.

    My hypothesis is that, aside the obvious German separation between the Western Powers and the Soviet ones, the Cold War and its 'Them vs Us' speech is a major factor in this attitude.

    What do you guys think of that?
    Last edited by Schuultz; 02-12-2009 at 08:09 AM.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Both side of the front fought such a different war that it seem legitimate to separate both allied sides.
    The same can be said about the great war when Russia did fight more than 3 years against Germany and Austria but is often forgotten as an ally country.
    And that is a point of view from the other side of the Rhine.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Hey Schuultz, I was looking up what you said, and it never occurred to me. Your Right!....And I think even China is considered an Allie too!!

    Major Allies
    (later: permanent members of the UN Security Council)
    China
    France (3 September 1939) - then (after 1940) Free France
    United Kingdom (3 September 1939)
    Soviet Union (from 22 June 1941)
    United States (from 7 December 1941)

    Minor Allies
    Australia
    Belgium (invaded May 10, 1940)
    Brazil
    Canada (10 September 1939)
    Greece (invaded October 28, 1940)
    Holland (invaded May 10, 1940)
    Luxembourg
    New Zealand
    Norway (invaded April 9, 1940)
    Poland (invaded 1 September 1939)
    South Africa
    Yugoslavia
    Wiki is ok. History Channel is ok.
    But WW2 Forum is the BEST!


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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    That’s a good point Schuultz. I must admit I can be ambiguous with my own usage of the term ‘Allies’ when referring to World War II. Some times I incorporate the Soviets into the group when referring to the Allies but more often I’ll call them the Allies along with the Soviets or Russians.

    Perhaps it is because the U.S., U.K., and France along with the smaller nations were generally fighting alongside each other while the Soviets were mostly on their own front. Or perhaps it is because for 50 years after the war the Soviets were the enemy for the Western powers so maybe we want to overlook the fact that the Soviets were a member of the Allies.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    I'd agree with the above. Owing to the fact that the western Allies fought on a different front and instances of both Soviet and Western forces fighting alongside one another are rare (Artic convoys being the only example i'm aware of) there is an obvious seperation - out of sight, out of mind. Furthermore when western historians were writing up the conflict during the cold war there would have been a natural inclination to try and not include their new adversaries. I can think of another example of this would be the that the Chinese theatre is often forgotten in mainstream western histories of WW2.
    "There is no country on the face of the earth to which the principle of citizen-soldiership is so well adapted as our own, for the freedom possessed by Britons is of so general and real a character as to cause the humblest in the land to feel deeply the neccessity of preserving the safety and independence of the nation of which he is a part"

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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    True, I can't recall ever really hearing about the Chinese theater, other than as a side-note when talking about the War in the Pacific between the US and Japan...
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    Hey everybody,

    Just a general thought I had:

    Did anybody notice how it seems to be relatively common that people, when using the term 'Allies' in WW2, only seem to think of the US/UK/France instead of US/UK/France/UDSSR?
    What? UDSSR was in Ally side?
    I thought the USSR was ally of Germany
    In 1939 we so well have invaded Poland..

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    And with Barbarossa they became Allies of the western powers, and were the ones that really broke Germany's back, contrary to popular US/UK opiniion...
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    What? UDSSR was in Ally side?
    I thought the USSR was ally of Germany
    In 1939 we so well have invaded Poland..
    Not too mention Finland.

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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    True, I can't recall ever really hearing about the Chinese theater, other than as a side-note when talking about the War in the Pacific between the US and Japan...
    It was anything but a sideshow. If the Japanese could have released the divisions they had in China, which from memory were probably about three times as many as the twelve they deployed for their thrusts south, the war could have been very different. Although that assumes that Japan had the merchant shipping to support so many more divisions overseas, which it didn't, so whether they could have been deployed is debatable. Admittedly, a lot of the divisions in China were facing the Soviets, so they couldn't have been released even if Japan had succeeded in China.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Not too mention Finland.
    ...and Chehoslovakia

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    ...and Chehoslovakia
    Nope, that was just pure Nazi Germany! (1968 doesn't count here )

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    And with Barbarossa they became Allies of the western powers, and were the ones that really broke Germany's back, contrary to popular US/UK opiniion...
    Oh common.
    It was lend lise that really has broke the Germany's back, every kid know it.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Nope, that was just pure Nazi Germany! (1968 doesn't count here )
    Yeah pure Nazi GErmany.

    Utter Germans here.
    And what was happend in 1968?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Allied ≠ Russians?

    The French and British being on the same side certainly seems odd. The British and French were enemies in the War of the Austrian Succession, Seven Years War, American Revolutionary War, French Revolutionary Wars and Napoleonic Wars. By contrast, the Russians seem to have generally been allied with Britain.

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