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Thread: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Yes yo're right.
    I just was meaning that the Soviet scientists never mentioned the "Japan trace" in Soviet nuclear program.
    Have you been to any of the Soviet archives? They are open to the public for research during the WWII-period.

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbaby View Post
    Might be worth keeping one's eyes out for a book about to be published by Bill Hilfer about the Soviet forcing down of a B-29 called Hog Wilde over Konan in September 1945. Bill whom I correspond with has uncovered about five new sources independent of David Snell that will cross corroborate the story from both US sources, British and Australian POWs held at Konan by the Japanese and surprisingly through former Soviet sources. Bill also tracked down and interviewed former OSS men in Korea who were with Snell and who corroborate what Snell said in the Atlanta Constitution. Several people may need to eat humble pie when Hog Wilde is published
    By "Bill Hilfer" do you mean "Bill Streifer," yours truly? Actually, small portions of The Flight of the Hog Wild have already been published in the OSS Society Journal and the American Intelligence Journal, and more are forthcoming. They dance around the subject of a Japanese nuclear program in Konan. Instead, they discuss OSS mission to rescue Allied POWs in Manchuria and Korea, and the downing of B-29 "Hog Wild" over Konan on August 29, 1945.

    The mission of the Hog Wild, by the way, was to deliver 10,000 pounds of food and medical supplies to British and Australian prisoners at a camp in Konan. If you believe the Soviet explanation for the downing of an ally aircraft on a "mercy mission" to a POW camp (an "error"), I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn. The Russians never made errors... Everything they did with cold calculation. The difficult part is determining that calculation.

    My co-author is a Russian journalist, so I was very pleased to learn that the Soviet archive (during the WWII period) is open to all (who speak Russian). Their intentions in downing an American bomber is revealed in the Soviet archives, and the Japanese/Soviet nuclear program in Konan is revealed in the U.S. archives.

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by royal744 View Post
    My readings on the subject indicated that both the Japanese army and navy had active nuclear bomb programs, neither of which got very close to producing a weapon of any sort. It would be typical of army-navy rivalry in Japan that parallel "programs" existed. I'm familiar with the destruction of a primary lab during a B-29 raid. I also read somewhere that even after the 2 bombs were dropped on Japan, that a leading Japanese scientist sought permission to continue to conduct research with the aim of producing an atomic weapon. This is sketchy, I know, and am drawing on memory, but I find it rather ironic in light off Japan's virtuous protestations to the contrary that they had their own nuclear weapons program which, if successful, they would have used in a New York minute on whoever was closest to hand. can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-I-t-e?
    Richard Rhodes may say the Japanese didn’t pursue their Atomic Bomb programs, but that was not the view of those Japanese scientist involved in the project:
    On 15 October 1946 for example the New York Times published an interview by an ABC reporter who interviewed Prof Arakatsu Bunsuku. At page 4 of the article it was reported that Arakatsu claimed he was making "tremendous strides" towards making an atomic bomb and that Russia probably already had one.

    Here’s another example:

    JAPANESE PHYSICIST, 83, SAYS JAPAN TRIED TO BUILD AN ATOMIC BOMB
    —Associated Press, dateline Tokyo, 20 July 1995.

    Japan’s World War II atomic research team had no ethical qualms about its goal—building an atomic bomb and unleashing it on America, a team leader said Wednesday. “We had no doubts about using it if we could. No one ever contemplated how terrible it would be,” physicist Tatsusaburo Suzuki, 83, said Wednesday. “We were just doing our best to put it together.”

    Suzuki was a leading researcher in Japan’s wartime effort to construct an atomic bomb. He spoke Wednesday in a rare and candid explanation of Japan’s World War II atomic bomb research.

    Scientists in Japan developed theories of how to build a bomb, he said, but never came close to actually making one because they lacked money and materials.

    So desperate were they for parts that military officials discussed scrapping a battleship and using the steel for the atomic experiments, Suzuki said.

    “I was confident at the time we could have built a bomb if we had better equipment,” he said.

    The projects was supported by Japan’s imperial household, and the emperor’s brothers were among the leaders who inspected and encouraged their work, he said.

    Suzuki was part of a team of 50 scientists culled from Japan’s army and top universities to work on developing the bomb. They made about 11 pounds of enriched uranium, he said—far short of what would have been needed to produce an atomic weapon.

    Americans found evidence of the project after the war and dumped the research equipment into Tokyo Bay. But few Japanese have provided detailed descriptions of the program, and the Japanese army destroyed all records of the project.

    He said none of the scientists working with him on the Japanese atomic bomb ever mentioned any ethical concerns about their project.

    His attitude changed, he said, when he visited Hiroshima and Nagasaki shortly after they were devastated in August 1945 in the world’s only atomic attacks.

    He was not clear about his reasons for calling a news conference now, almost 50 years after the end of the war, to describe in detail the effort to build an atomic bomb.

    Japanese officials had discussed targets including US air bases that were being used to bomb Japanese cities.
    Bunsaku Arakatsu, whilst Head of Particle Physics at Taipei, constructed a Cockcroft-Walton accelerator in Taiwan and conducted nuclear experiments using it for the first time in 1933. In 1936 Arakatsu moved back to Japan, to became a Professor of Kyoto University. At Kyoto, he performed several experiments on nuclear reactions with neutrons from D-D (Deuterium) reaction and γ-rays from Li + p reaction with a Cockcroft-Walton accelerator both before and during WWII. One of the most significant experimental results was determining the average number of neutrons produced in the fission chain reaction of Uranium 235 induced by slow neutrons as 2.6, which was the most accurate value obtained before the War.

    In 1934, Tohoku University Professor Hikosaka Tadayoshi's paper on atomic physics theory was released. Hikosaka pointed out the huge energy contained within the atomic nuclei and a possibility that both nuclear power generation and nuclear weapons could be created.

    As early as 1934, therefore, the Imperial Japanese Navy was intrigued enough to sponsor investigation into the feasibility of producing a "super-weapon" based on Dr Enrico Fermi's theories of atoms. From 1937, Osaka Imperial University professor Asada Tsunesaburo gave lectures at the Naval Technical Research Institute advocating the development of an atomic bomb.

    By about Sept/Oct 1944 Germany had transferred to Japan technology to construct a 1kt boosted fission warhead based on the Schumann-Trinks concept. Technology was also transferred for the construction of V-2 rockets at Mukden in Manchuria which the Japanese intended to use nuclear warheads with. Corroboration can be found in a 1945 US Navy Intelligence report "German Technical Aid to Japan: a Survey", 15 June 1945, held by the Combined Arms Research Library, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, USA, reference 3-1695-00561-5885,

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    Richard Rhodes may say the Japanese didn’t pursue their Atomic Bomb programs, but that was not the view of those Japanese scientist involved in the project:
    On 15 October 1946 for example the New York Times published an interview by an ABC reporter who interviewed Prof Arakatsu Bunsuku. At page 4 of the article it was reported that Arakatsu claimed he was making "tremendous strides" towards making an atomic bomb and that Russia probably already had one.

    Here’s another example:

    JAPANESE PHYSICIST, 83, SAYS JAPAN TRIED TO BUILD AN ATOMIC BOMB
    —Associated Press, dateline Tokyo, 20 July 1995.
    Scientists in Japan developed theories of how to build a bomb, he said, but never came close to actually making one because they lacked money and materials.
    So far as all arguments about Japan actually building an atomic weapon, let alone detonating one as suggested by the article at the start of this thread, is concerned, I'm happy to accept Tatsusaburo Suzuki's confirmation that Japan never came close to making one.
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    Richard Rhodes may say the Japanese didn’t pursue their Atomic Bomb programs, but that was not the view of those Japanese scientist involved in the project: On 15 October 1946 for example the New York Times published an interview by an ABC reporter who interviewed Prof Arakatsu Bunsuku. At page 4 of the article it was reported that Arakatsu claimed he was making "tremendous strides" towards making an atomic bomb and that Russia probably already had one.
    Richard Rhodes certainly didn't say that. In fact, he quotes from 1943-1944 conversations between Dr. Yoshio Nishina and a Japanese General, urging him to develop the atomic bomb.

    Regarding Dr. Bunsaku Arakatsu and "tremendous strides," Kiwiguy is correct. In my recently copyrighted manuscript, I explain in great detail the nature of Arakatsu's "tremendous strides." [Arakatsu was not boasting or lying] Upon publication, I will include the actual experiments that Arakatsu conducted, and show that his calculations were more or less in line with the work done by Manhattan Project scientists. By the way, my co-author is a Stanford-educated particle physicist... and a hell of a nice guy.

    Bill Streifer

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    So far as all arguments about Japan actually building an atomic weapon, let alone detonating one as suggested by the article at the start of this thread, is concerned, I'm happy to accept Tatsusaburo Suzuki's confirmation that Japan never came close to making one.
    Tatsusaburo Suzuki was in no position to know. The Japanese Army and the Japanese Navy had their own atomic programs, and they only consulted ONCE (concerning uranium). If you want to know how far Japan got, read what Arakatsu and Arakatsu's students have said.

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    So far as all arguments about Japan actually building an atomic weapon, let alone detonating one as suggested by the article at the start of this thread, is concerned, I'm happy to accept Tatsusaburo Suzuki's confirmation that Japan never came close to making one.
    Well you're wrong because Suzuki was part of the research group at Kyoto University with Arakatsu and he commented after the war that he was bitter that he and his F-Go teammates were excluded by Nishina from participation in F-NZ which was the project reborn in Korea under the Imperial 8th Army laboratory headed by General Kawashima so Suzuki by October 1944 was no longer in a position to know either way.

    What happened in October 1944 was that the Japanese switched efforts from uranium enrichment to developing Uranium 233 from Thorium found in ten mines all commissioned by the Japanese in October 1944. At the same time a Thorium refinery was built in the port of Konan (now Hungnam) and a powerful cyclotron was installed in a mine on hill slopes above the town. Konan was an industrial centre with a large Ammonia fertiliser plant converted for production of explosives and heavy water in WWII. It also had a large Tungsten Carbide plant with electric arc furnaces.

    The cyclotron was used for conversion of Thorium 232 into Uranium 233 via Protatcinium. How do we know that fact today?

    Because in 2005 the Russians declassified KGB archives revealing correspondence from the Soviet garrison commander for Konan, Maj Gen Shytkov with his boss, one certain Josef Stalin about the Uranium 233 production facility they captured intact from the Japanese when they captured the city by paratrooper landings on 24 August 1945.

    Indeed the Soviets were so impressed they used six Japanese scientists and a number of Japanese chemical engineers to keep the Thorium/Uranium project running until the end of 1947. The Soviets sent relays of submarines to Konan to collect small crates of the precious Uranium 233 for Russia's own atomic bomb project. (there was no railway connection to Russia until 1951-52). Soviet interest in U233 waned by 1949.

    We also know this from a Japanese chemical engineer who stole a small fishing boat in 1946 and fled Soviet captivity to the south. He was questioned by American Intelligence and confirmed the Japanese did successfully test a nuclear weapon in 1945.

    Anybody wishing to check for themselves can consult US intelligence reports NA, RG 224, Box 3 interrogation of Otogoro Natsume 31 October 1946 by Dr Kelly “Further questioning the newspaper story about Atomic bomb explosion in Korea” with T/4 Matsuda present as interpreter.Natsume escaped on small sailing boat in December 1945.

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by photografr7 View Post
    Tatsusaburo Suzuki was in no position to know.
    So you're saying that Kiwiguy's source is worthless?

    Quote Originally Posted by photografr7 View Post
    The Japanese Army and the Japanese Navy had their own atomic programs, and they only consulted ONCE (concerning uranium). If you want to know how far Japan got, read what Arakatsu and Arakatsu's students have said.
    How about you tell us what the IJA and IJN had in their own atomic programs, as you're the one putting that forward?
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    So you're saying that Kiwiguy's source is worthless?



    How about you tell us what the IJA and IJN had in their own atomic programs, as you're the one putting that forward?
    this may help explain it



    "There are no great men, there are only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet."- ADM William F. Halsey

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    So you're saying that Kiwiguy's source is worthless?
    No, I am not saying that. ALL information has value. How you interpret that information is key. The credibility of the source and other factors must be taken into account. Also keep this in mind: When the Manhattan Project concluded their investigation in September 30, 1945, they concluded that the Japanese military and government had no program to produce an atomic bomb. Do you believe that is true? Have we learned nothing about Japan's two atomic programs in the past 70 years?

    Regarding Tatsusaburo Suzuki:

    Did he tell the truth?
    Did he lie?
    Did he intend on misleading?
    Where did he obtain this information?
    Does his information agree with other information obtained from other sources?
    Was he familiar with both Nishina's and Arakatsu's programs?
    Did he have an axe to grind?

    I am an author on intelligence matters.
    I have to do this sort of analysis every time I quote a supposedly knowledgeable source.

    Can I tell you what the IJA and IJN accomplished? No, sorry.

    Here's an article I wrote about the father of North Korea's nuclear weapons program you might enjoy. It's not unrelated to David Snell's October 3, 1946 report on Japan's atomic program at Konan:
    http://www.nknews.org/2013/05/do-san...eapon-program/

    - Bill Streifer

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Speaking of Tatsusaburo Suzuki, I'd like to share an interesting story.

    In 1997, my friend and colleague in Tokyo, a Japanese-American and WWII veteran, visited a chemical school associated with the Japan National Army Defense Agency (Army). He requested and obtained permission to go through documents that might shed new light on Japan's atomic program. There, he found an article written in 1963 by Tatsusaburo Suzuki, who by that time was a Brigadier General. He explained how Ni-go began, how it ended, and everything in-between. There are no huge revelations -- any that I am at liberty to share, anyway -- but Suzuki's account contains some interesting, never-before-revealed, details. The Chemical School wouldn't permit photo copies, so my friend had to transcribe each page by hand. And later, he typed it up.

    In 1997, he sent a copy to his friend Arnold Kramish (the author of Atomic Energy in the Soviet Union) and in November 2013, he sent me a copy. We now know that the Japanese and Soviet nuclear programs are linked by way of Konan, so this story has come full-circle.

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by photografr7 View Post
    Speaking of Tatsusaburo Suzuki, I'd like to share an interesting story.

    In 1997, my friend and colleague in Tokyo, a Japanese-American and WWII veteran, visited a chemical school associated with the Japan National Army Defense Agency (Army). He requested and obtained permission to go through documents that might shed new light on Japan's atomic program. There, he found an article written in 1963 by Tatsusaburo Suzuki, who by that time was a Brigadier General. He explained how Ni-go began, how it ended, and everything in-between. There are no huge revelations -- any that I am at liberty to share, anyway -- but Suzuki's account contains some interesting, never-before-revealed, details. The Chemical School wouldn't permit photo copies, so my friend had to transcribe each page by hand. And later, he typed it up.

    In 1997, he sent a copy to his friend Arnold Kramish (the author of Atomic Energy in the Soviet Union) and in November 2013, he sent me a copy. We now know that the Japanese and Soviet nuclear programs are linked by way of Konan, so this story has come full-circle.
    Be all that as it may, the fact remains that Japan didn't have a working atomic weapon by August 1945 when the Americans used the only working atomic weapons then or since on enemy targets.

    As with discussion in another thread about Germany supposedly having an atomic bomb or weapon in April 1945, the fact remains that in both Germany and Japan when they had their backs to the wall and were down to the level of throwing roof tiles at the Allies, they didn't detonate their supposed atomic weapons.

    The reason they didn't detonate them is because they didn't have anything to detonate. Whether they were days or years away from that point is irrelevant, but in Japan's case Japan would have delayed surrender discussions longer if it thought it had the faintest chance of using an atomic weapon.

    As for the supposed Japanese atomic test, read the earlier part of this thread for cogent reasons why it is nonsense.

    As for the Soviet nuclear program being linked to Konan, the Soviets derived important information more from spies in America than anything gained from relatively rudimentary Japanese efforts.
    ..
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    As for the supposed Japanese atomic test, read the earlier part of this thread for cogent reasons why it is nonsense.
    The claim that Japan conducted an atomic test is not nonsense for the following reason (I could go into detail for each, but I won't). What I will say is that my information was derived from numerous sources in Japanese, Russian, Korean and English, as well as numerous archives throughout the world. And my colleagues include a Russian journalist, a Russian physicist, a Japanese physicist and an American particle physicist... to name but a few:

    1. The U.S. military didn't believe it was nonsense. Following publication of David Snell's article, they carried out an extensive investigation in Japan and in Korea.

    2. David Snell is a distinguished journalist.

    3. The U.S. military interviewed a Japanese chemist and a Japanese security officer from Konan even before Snell became aware of Konan.

    4. The source of Snell's story is one of the top six scientists (chemists) who was captured and tortured by the Russians before he managed to flee to Seoul, and the head of intelligence and security at the facility. If an atomic test never happened, they are lying. How you can accuse them of lying without knowing all of the facts is beyond me.

    5. The Russians believed that Japan was carrying out some sort of nuclear research at Konan. That is why five of the six Japanese scientists were tortured and transported to Russia. If the explosion was a conventional explosive or Z-stoff, the Russians wouldn't have cared less.

    6. No one is aware of the full extent of nuclear-related activities at Konan, during and after the war. U.S. Intelligence knows, but you don't.

    7. No one is aware of the progress that Japanese scientists made toward the development of an atomic bomb during the war. U.S. Intelligence knows, but you don't.

    8. No one knows the relationship between nuclear activities at Konan and nuclear activities on the Japanese mainland. The Japanese know, but you don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    As for the Soviet nuclear program being linked to Konan, the Soviets derived important information more from spies in America than anything gained from relatively rudimentary Japanese efforts.
    You clearly don't know what role spies played in the Soviet atomic program, and you also clearly believe that Soviet nuclear capability in 1945 was greater than Japanese nuclear capability in 1945. For one, did you know that Japan's nuclear weapons program began in 1941 or 1943, and that the Soviet nuclear weapons program didn't begin until after WWII ended? Then read the following: Szulc, Tad. “The Untold Story of How Russia ‘Got the Bomb’,” Los Angeles Times, Aug. 26, 1984, p. D1, 3.

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by photografr7 View Post
    The claim that Japan conducted an atomic test is not nonsense for the following reason (I could go into detail for each, but I won't). What I will say is that my information was derived from numerous sources in Japanese, Russian, Korean and English, as well as numerous archives throughout the world. And my colleagues include a Russian journalist, a Russian physicist, a Japanese physicist and an American particle physicist... to name but a few:

    1. The U.S. military didn't believe it was nonsense. Following publication of David Snell's article, they carried out an extensive investigation in Japan and in Korea.

    2. David Snell is a distinguished journalist.

    3. The U.S. military interviewed a Japanese chemist and a Japanese security officer from Konan even before Snell became aware of Konan.

    4. The source of Snell's story is one of the top six scientists (chemists) who was captured and tortured by the Russians before he managed to flee to Seoul, and the head of intelligence and security at the facility. If an atomic test never happened, they are lying. How you can accuse them of lying without knowing all of the facts is beyond me.

    5. The Russians believed that Japan was carrying out some sort of nuclear research at Konan. That is why five of the six Japanese scientists were tortured and transported to Russia. If the explosion was a conventional explosive or Z-stoff, the Russians wouldn't have cared less.

    6. No one is aware of the full extent of nuclear-related activities at Konan, during and after the war. U.S. Intelligence knows, but you don't.

    7. No one is aware of the progress that Japanese scientists made toward the development of an atomic bomb during the war. U.S. Intelligence knows, but you don't.

    8. No one knows the relationship between nuclear activities at Konan and nuclear activities on the Japanese mainland. The Japanese know, but you don't.




    You clearly don't know what role spies played in the Soviet atomic program, and you also clearly believe that Soviet nuclear capability in 1945 was greater than Japanese nuclear capability in 1945. For one, did you know that Japan's nuclear weapons program began in 1941 or 1943, and that the Soviet nuclear weapons program didn't begin until after WWII ended? Then read the following: Szulc, Tad. “The Untold Story of How Russia ‘Got the Bomb’,” Los Angeles Times, Aug. 26, 1984, p. D1, 3.
    Then why did they surrender? Why didn't they seed Japan with such bombs and use them as landmines on the Downfall invasion areas that the Japanese had quite correctly surmised? Or The Tokyo Plane?

    And I am a "former CIC Agent" that dealt with nuclear details at certain points, I can tell you that Snelling was way in over his head and level of education...

    And precisely who was "US Intelligence?" Which agency?
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 01-26-2014 at 10:21 AM.

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    By the way, Arnold Kramish was a member of the Manhattan Project.

    First of all, congratulations. All Americans should be proud of the fine work the CIC has done over the years to protect the United States. The following is from a 1947 CIC report concerning Hamhung, the next town over from Hamhung (known as Konan by the Japanese):

    According to a 971st Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) report, a Soviet Intelligence training school (service unknown) was located in Hamhung in 1945. There, Korean students learned espionage and sabotage. A Soviet captain was said to be on the teaching staff. Each course was taken by 200 students. This information was obtained by two of the students who had been arrested. One was arrested in 1946. The school reportedly graduated 500 student, 300 of whom were sent to South Korea to gather information regarding U.S. troops, the political situation, and on missions involving terrorism. To qualify for admission to the school, the applicant had to be a middle school graduate, between the ages of 19 and 28 of either sex. Upon graduation, the student becomes a "collaborator" with the Soviet Intelligence organization and a propaganda agent.


    First a small correction. Also, it's Snell, not Snelling. If you are going to criticize him, at least you can spell his name right. By the way, I'm writing his biography, so I know a little about him. He was a reporter, not a scientist. He asked questions and wrote the answers down. He didn't make the story up or add his own commentary, except (if I remember correctly) perhaps the last 2 or 3 sentences at the end of his article. Before publication, Snell discussed the story with the XXIV Corps (G-2), Col. Cecil Nist, and the Commanding General of the XXIV Corps, Lieut. Gen. John R. Hodge. According to a report by the XXIV Corps, basic atomic research began in Japan and the development of a bomb or other weapon was carried out at Konan, and the Russians grabbed some of the equipment (but I can't tell you which parts).

    Here's a brief outline of my book, so you know where I'm coming from: http://www.my-jia.com/The_Flight_of_...ld/preview.htm

    Now back to your question:

    Which intelligence agencies investigated Japan's atomic program at Konan? First and foremost it was the U.S. Army's XXIV Corps G-2 based in Seoul. Then there was the 971st Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC). ALSOS (which took part in missions to demolish Germany's nuclear program) was entirely unaware of Japan's nuclear weapons program on Japan, let alone in Korea. They were completely clueless. The OSS, SSU, X-2 and the MIS were also involved in an investigation into Japan's atomic program, none of which has been published to date. That's what I'll be writing about.

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