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Thread: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Sounds like a lot of hot cock to me.

    Long on journalistic devices, short on verifiable fact, or any fact.

    I'm not aware of Japan having any capacity during WWII to produce atomic weapons, or even any great interest in doing so.
    Actually, Rising Sun - irony of ironies - the Japanese did have two simultaneous nuclear research teams working on the bomb at the same time. One was sponsored by the army; the other by the navy. This rivalry should be familiar by now. We do know they were both working on the problem. It has been well documented. There is little evidence that they got far enough to running an actual test - slim to none, but they were trying to develop a nuclear device which givesd a bit of the lie to all the Japanese pleadings about the cruel allies uring one on them. If they had had one, they would have used one without compunction.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Might be worth keeping one's eyes out for a book about to be published by Bill Hilfer about the Soviet forcing down of a B-29 called Hog Wilde over Konan in September 1945. Bill whom I correspond with has uncovered about five new sources independent of David Snell that will cross corroborate the story from both US sources, British and Australian POWs held at Konan by the Japanese and surprisingly through former Soviet sources. Bill also tracked down and interviewed former OSS men in Korea who were with Snell and who corroborate what Snell said in the Atlanta Constitution.

    Several people may need to eat humble pie when Hog Wilde is published.

    Incidentally although uranium was being shipped to Japan via U-boat few people seem to realise that the town which japan called Konan is now Hungnam and that the nuclear laboratory is today actually the site of a uranium mine in North Korea. I don't think the Japanese lacked for uranium supplies.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocketbaby View Post
    Might be worth keeping one's eyes out for a book about to be published by Bill Hilfer about the Soviet forcing down of a B-29 called Hog Wilde over Konan in September 1945. Bill whom I correspond with has uncovered about five new sources independent of David Snell that will cross corroborate the story from both US sources, British and Australian POWs held at Konan by the Japanese and surprisingly through former Soviet sources. Bill also tracked down and interviewed former OSS men in Korea who were with Snell and who corroborate what Snell said in the Atlanta Constitution.
    I'm always willing to eat humble pie, but not until I'm convinced I'm wrong.

    What does the end of the Hog Wild's flight prove about Japan's alleged nuclear program and explosion?

    Where is the evidence that Japan had the technological sophistication and industry, not to mention considerable other resources, devoted to such a long term project to produce a successful atomic weapon?

    Or did Japan manage to do it on a shoestring in Konan while America had to employ the vast human, technological and industrial resources of the Manhattan Project?

    If so, why did it take the USSR, with its considerable human, technological and industrial resources, another four years to detonate its own bomb after acquiring the rich resources of Japan's successful nucelar program in Konan?
    ..
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  4. #19
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I'm always willing to eat humble pie, but not until I'm convinced I'm wrong.

    What does the end of the Hog Wild's flight prove about Japan's alleged nuclear program and explosion?

    Where is the evidence that Japan had the technological sophistication and industry, not to mention considerable other resources, devoted to such a long term project to produce a successful atomic weapon?

    Or did Japan manage to do it on a shoestring in Konan while America had to employ the vast human, technological and industrial resources of the Manhattan Project?

    If so, why did it take the USSR, with its considerable human, technological and industrial resources, another four years to detonate its own bomb after acquiring the rich resources of Japan's successful nucelar program in Konan?
    In the absence of any firm evidence whatsoever I am very much on the side of RS and reality check here. If the Japanese had the ability to do this then they would have used it I think. No I don't think it was possible at all and Ive read nothing to the contrary.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    I take the view that the research was being done, but that the experimentation and refining techniques were well behind anything the Allied nations had achieved. In common with the German Atomic Research Program, the research was most likely on-going, but not progressing at any great rate, despite the near-frantic pace at which the relevant personnel were working.
    I do not see that a "successful" Atomic Weapon detonation test could have or would have taken place. I *do* acknowledge the barest chance that some sort of accidental explosion may have happened in remote laboratories well away from the "main" research facilities in the case of both Japan and Germany. Such an explosion, *if* it had happened in either case would account for the alleged "records" of such explosions that supposedly came to light many years after World War Two.

    Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  6. #21
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Assuming for the purpose of argument that Japan had developed an atomic weapon capable of detonation, why would it test it in a place of no military or strategic significance instead of testing / using it offensively against the rapidly advancing Soviets on the same land mass?

    It just doesn't make sense that, facing certain defeat from the advancing Allies on all fronts, Japan would test in the middle of nowhere the only weapon it had which might have improved its negotiating position with the Allies.

    Why would Japan cave in after Hiroshima and Nagasaki when it had the opportunity to say to the Allies: So what? We have a nuclear weapon too.

    Japan's nuclear capacity never figured in its increasingly desperate negotiations for surrender, which demonstrates that Japan had no nuclear capacity.
    ..
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  7. #22
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Sounds like a lot of hot cock to me.

    Long on journalistic devices, short on verifiable fact, or any fact.

    I'm not aware of Japan having any capacity during WWII to produce atomic weapons, or even any great interest in doing so.
    Actually, Rising Sun, both the Imperial Navy and the Imperial Army had active nuclear mob programs. They didn't get the resources they needed to bring this to a conclusion and I don't believe a test was ever conducted.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Assuming for the purpose of argument that Japan had developed an atomic weapon capable of detonation, why would it test it in a place of no military or strategic significance instead of testing / using it offensively against the rapidly advancing Soviets on the same land mass?
    It's worth pointing out that at this time in the war Japan had no strategic bombers and was starved of fuel.

    It just doesn't make sense that, facing certain defeat from the advancing Allies on all fronts, Japan would test in the middle of nowhere the only weapon it had which might have improved its negotiating position with the Allies.

    Why would Japan cave in after Hiroshima and Nagasaki when it had the opportunity to say to the Allies: So what? We have a nuclear weapon too.

    Actually the Japanese Government did not cave-in after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ozawa recommended to the Cabinet holding out. the Royal family however sent peace feelers to Russia insisting that Japan would only surrender conditional that:

    1) The Royal Family retained their position
    2) The Japanese Government remained in full sovereign control
    3) War Crimes trials be conducted by Japan on Japanese soil
    4) Japanese armies would be disarmed only by Japanese officers

    Japan's nuclear capacity never figured in its increasingly desperate negotiations for surrender, which demonstrates that Japan had no nuclear capacity.
    Why show a trump card?

  9. #24
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Heck,

    I wish the Ruskies had of used the German or Japanese data. I suspect they would still be trying to build one today if they had.

    Deaf
    “We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” Ayn Rand

  10. #25
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    ...Actually the Japanese Government did not cave-in after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ozawa recommended to the Cabinet holding out. the Royal family however sent peace feelers to Russia insisting that Japan would only surrender conditional that:

    1) The Royal Family retained their position
    2) The Japanese Government remained in full sovereign control
    3) War Crimes trials be conducted by Japan on Japanese soil
    4) Japanese armies would be disarmed only by Japanese officers
    The "peace feelers" which Japan transmitted to the Soviet Union were sent weeks before Hiroshima and Nagasaki were attacked with atomic bombs.

    The Soviet Union declared war on Japan the day before the Nagasaki atom bomb attack, but the news did not reach Tokyo until just a couple of hours before the news of the second atom bomb being dropped on Nagasaki.

    The Japanese government did not "cave in" after the atom bomb attacks; in fact, the military, which controlled the Japanese government at that point, still wanted to continue the fight. But key elements of the leadership, including Hirohito, and several senior Army commanders realized that there would now be no American ground invasion of Japan, and thus the last chance to inflict devastating casualties on the enemy, and gain negotiating leverage, was lost.

    Hirohito directed that the Potsdam Declaration be accepted, but tried one last negotiating ploy; that a condition be attached that he be allowed to remain a sovereign ruler. This condition was implicitly rejected by the US in the State Department reply to the Japanese message, which stated that the Emperor would be subject to the orders of the Occupation authorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwiguy View Post
    Why show a trump card?
    Because it's not a "trump card" (more appropriately "ace in the hole") unless the other side actually believes you have it.

    Case in point: The Japanese initially rejected the Potsdam Declaration because they thought the sentence, "The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction." was just bombastic Allied rhetoric. It wasn't until the atomic bombs were demonstrated at Hiroshima and Nagasaki that the part about "utter destruction" was understood to be an accurate statement.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard View Post
    Because it's not a "trump card" (more appropriately "ace in the hole") unless the other side actually believes you have it.
    ....or alternately as you yourself put it unless the trump card was the element of surprise

    But key elements of the leadership, including Hirohito, and several senior Army commanders realized that there would now be no American ground invasion of Japan, and thus the last chance to inflict devastating casualties on the enemy, and gain negotiating leverage, was lost.
    I think you just answered your own question.




    These references may shed extra light on the question:

    http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news...120_56715.html

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/3655253

    http://www.my-jia.com/The_Flight_of_...Wild/index.htm

  12. #27
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Yes yo're right.
    I just was meaning that the Soviet scientists never mentioned the "Japan trace" in Soviet nuclear program.
    This was the start the cold war (@ end of WWII). Russia didn't trust us or many other countries. They're certainly not going to "share" any knowledge of Japanese traces (or about Russia invading Japanese held parts of China and Korea and kidnapping Japanese nuclear scientist).

  13. #28
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    Most of the information/data the Russians employed in their Atom Bomb Project was acquired, one way and another, from Julius and Ethel Rosenberg.
    The Russians *DID* kidnap and employ various British and French Nuclear Scientists between 1946 and 1950: this is amply documented in many and varied sources.

    Later information that fell into Russian hands was confirmed as reasonably accurate by the father-son-mother team arrested by the FBI in about 1987: the son had been a Lieutenant in the US Navy, and most of the Russian interest in his information related to submarine propellers, with occasional diversions into the nuclear missiles/warheads topic.

    Did the Russians kidnap and employ British and French Nuclear scientists? Yes: that makes most sense: Stalin and Beria being at the height of their powers and consequent paranoeias. However: I do not believe that even that much extra "help" gave the Russians more than 6 to 8 months advance on that which Soviet Nuclear Scientists already knew or were aware of.
    Granted: the Soviet Nuclear Bomb Project *WAS* a "crash program"; I can't see any room for debate there.
    But even so: by 1952 at the latest; Soviet Nuclear Scientists unaided would have had the ability and know-how to produce a usable Nuclear Bomb. And that was Stalin's aim.

    A successful Japanese or German Nuclear Weapon Test Detonation would have required from either Nation resources that, by the time the alleged Test detonation took place; simply did not exist.

    That the Russians *may* have to some minute degree profited from either Japanese or German Research is not beyond the realms of reason. Nor is it a guaranteed fact. The Russians, by Stalin's Directive, were gathering all and any Nuclear data they could find.

    I do not believe either Japan or Germany ever conducted a proper Atom Bomb test Detonation.
    I do believe it to be within realm of reason that some form of unplanned or accidental detonation took place for either Japan or Germany (or both), and that it was closer to a "Dirty Bomb" detonation than a true, verifiable Atom Bomb detonation.

    Kind and Respectful Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  14. #29
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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    My readings on the subject indicated that both the Japanese army and navy had active nuclear bomb programs, neither of which got very close to producing a weapon of any sort. It would be typical of army-navy rivalry in Japan that parallel "programs" existed. I'm familiar with the destruction of a primary lab during a B-29 raid. I also read somewhere that even after the 2 bombs were dropped on Japan, that a leading Japanese scientist sought permission to continue to conduct research with the aim of producing an atomic weapon. This is sketchy, I know, and am drawing on memory, but I find it rather ironic in light off Japan's virtuous protestations to the contrary that they had their own nuclear weapons program which, if successful, they would have used in a New York minute on whoever was closest to hand. can you spell h-y-p-o-c-r-I-t-e?

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    Default Re: A Successful Japanese Atomic Bomb Test?

    In Richard Rhodes book on the making of the a-bomb (for which he won the Pulitzer Prize), he asserts that the Japanese didnt pursue their Atomic Bomb programs, in large part, because they felt that no other country would be able to successfully produce one before the war ended. And in commenting on what country stole or used whoever elses data, keep in mind that in the 20s-40s when fission was first being speculated on, and later proven, there were probably only 1000 or so nuclear physicists in the whole world, and due to the need to cross borders for education, many of the leading physicists new each other often quite well. Teller was friends with the chief Russian physicist; Fermi, Szilard and Bohr were friends with Heisenburg who ran the German a-bomb program.
    What really scares me, the principal behind the fusion bomb was already understood before the war, and Teller was actively campaigning for the Hydrogen Bomb (the Super), to be the end goal of the Manhattan Project.

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