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Thread: Boys in shorts

  1. #1
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    Default Boys in shorts

    At Greek village Kondomari on Kreta island a group of German paratroopers was ambushed and several of them got killed by forks and axes.
    Two days later, 2-june-1941, they came back and executed all adult males.
    The same day in the neighbouring village 300 more locals were executed.

    Photographs of the event in Kondomari: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Ca...omari_Massacre

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    So how many victims are we talking?

    300 in a different village + how many in the original village?

    Also, in the linked article, the author claims that the partisans killed a group of German soldiers in such brutal ways that it enraged the Germans to commit these war crimes.

    Any further info on that?
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (supreme command of the Wehrmacht), May 30 1941:
    During the Battle of Crete wounded german soldiers were mutilated in such a brute way which had only occured in this war during the polish campaign so far...with the strictest tribunal the german Wehrmacht will strike upon the responsible troops or the guilty inhabitants.
    "Die Bildchronik der Fallschirmtruppe 1935-1945" (Arnold von Roon)
    Cretian liberation fighters did not fight with stones only but murdered with hunting weapons in ambushes. They even used international banned dum-dum bullets. Wounded soldiers and those injured after the jump were their usual victims and then often robbed them.
    "Sonderauftrag Südost 1940-1945" (Hermann Neubacher)
    ...terrifyingly mutilated, crucified, impaled, roasted alive...then, in the first moments of horror and wrath there's no stopping the longing for revenge. Who dares to judge the case in calm temper after finding his comrades as bloody stumps because they were sentenced to a slow death?"
    However this painting shows the way the partisans of Crete considered their struggle:
    img897.jpg
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Nice painting...
    Why is that the German paratrooper doesn't fire his submachine gun???
    I guess it is not because he did not want to shoot nobody...

    Were not German paratroopers tought how to use ordinary objects as weapons? Whould they hessitate to use a stone to crush the enemy skull?

    Any way, the death of the ambushed Germans probably (likely) was very terrible.
    The punishement was a war crime. A preplanned war crime commited in cold blood.

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Just again showing how perplexing the question of who's right and who's wrong in war. barbarity begets barbarity.
    Last edited by saffer; 01-15-2009 at 04:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Oh my god.
    The peoples obviously didn't suspect what will going on.
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Zivilisten.jpg
    This scene reminds me the ethnic execution in Yugoslavia.
    During the Battle of Crete wounded german soldiers were mutilated in such a brute way which had only occured in this war during the polish campaign so far...with the strictest tribunal the german Wehrmacht will strike upon the responsible troops or the guilty inhabitants
    But how many GErmans were killed and by which exactly barbaric way?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by saffer View Post
    Just again showing how perplexing the question of who's right and who's wrong in war. barbarity begets barbarity.
    It also shows how interpretations depend upon one's standpoint.

    On the Allied side, the Cretans were regarded as enormously courageous by going up against well armed soldiers with only civilian firearms and anything else they could get their hands on.

    It's understandable for the German troops to be outraged about extreme actions by Cretans, but this rather denies the Cretans their much more justified outrage about Germans invading their island and their right to resist by whatever means they could. Maybe the Germans should have been grateful that the Cretans weren't an organised and properly equipped military force defending with the same vigour.

    I don't have a problem identifying who's wrong in this sort of case. It's always the aggressive invader, in the same way that an armed man who invades my home and starts attacking me or my family is liable to be belted to death with whatever I can get my hands on, if that's what it takes to stop him.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I don't have a problem identifying who's wrong in this sort of case. It's always the aggressive invader, in the same way that an armed man who invades my home and starts attacking me or my family is liable to be belted to death with whatever I can get my hands on, if that's what it takes to stop him.
    Does your point advocate that the Allies in 1945 were agressors who invide the GErmany, and it was legitime for GErmans to use whatever they can gat into the hands?
    The poisoning the water and food includes.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by saffer View Post
    barbarity begets barbarity.
    Who is exactly arguing against this, may I ask?

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Does your point advocate that the Allies in 1945 were agressors who invide the GErmany
    No, the aggressor in Europe was Germany and the invasion of Germany was necessary to put an end to that aggression and all that followed until Germany surrendered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    and it was legitime for GErmans to use whatever they can gat into the hands?
    This raises an interesting question contrasted with the previous one.

    Perhaps somewhat inconsistently with my previous answer, I'd say that the answer for German civilians acting independently of the military is probably: Yes.

    The fact that Germany started the war would be irrelevant to me as a German citizen in a German town being shelled by the advancing Allies who are trying to kill me. I'd feel like striking back at them and I think I would be justified at a personal level in doing so. And if the bastards had just wiped out my family by shelling my house, I would if I could.

    What is right or wrong in international law and in events between nations is utterly irrelevant to the people facing each other on the ground in war, and personal considerations often override the laws of war and so on. As in the Cretan example in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    The poisoning the water and food includes.
    Yeah, why not?

    Pursuing the last example, Allied artillery has just killed my wife and two children when they shelled my house, along with most other houses in the town even though none of the civilians were offering resistance. The Allies have just destroyed everything that matters to me. I am, as I really am, an unfit man nudging 60 with no chance of doing much damage by taking up arms against the advancing infantry before they kill me, but I am determined to kill and harm as many of the bastards as I can.

    Even though the advancing infantry had nothing to do with shelling my home and might even treat me well once they occupy my town, as far as I'm concerned they're all part of the same side who killed my family.

    So as they come into the town I wave an American or British flag and I give them food and wine, laced with rat poison. By the time they start feeling sick, I've sent a company or two to their graves.

    Sure, their mates are going to work out what happened and hunt me down and kill me if they can find me, but that was going to happen if I took up a rifle and killed only two or three of them before they killed me. At least this way I die having done more damage to them than they deserve, the same as they've done to me and my family, and the same way that Allied bombers have been doing to the major towns, industries, railways, and public utilities in my region for the past few years.

    What's wrong with me responding with a bit of indiscriminate death when the Allies come within my range?

    (When I consider these situations, I am forced to conclude that, as a pacifist, I am not a very good one. )
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    (When I consider these situations, I am forced to conclude that, as a pacifist, I am not a very good one. )
    You sure aren't.

    The mass execution of the civilians was a war crime - this is a fact, no matter what the motivation of the German soldiers was.

    Still, considering the circumstances, it is a lot more understandable than the ethnic cleansing the Germans liked to do to Russian civilians.

    Crete isn't very big, and as I read it, the majority of the murders was committed in a certain town, which must have been near the site of the ambushing and killing of the Paratroopers. So the soldiers obviously assumed that those fellas were responsible for it. Knowing the Southern-European temper, I'm sure the Cretans also had absolutely no scruple showing their "discontentment" with the German occupation.

    And it's not like the German Military High Command really cared to much about the lawful conduct of war, and they probably thought that the execution of anybody suspected to be a partisan would not only crush/deter resistance, but also boost the morale of the soldiers.

    I'm sure as heck that I would want revenge, too, if I saw my comrades slaughtered and tortured to death by an otherwise invisible enemy...
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    But how many GErmans were killed...
    On the quick I don't have any numbers but will look for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    ...and by which exactly barbaric way?
    I'd like to refer to my original post here:
    ...terrifyingly mutilated, crucified, impaled, roasted alive...
    Where I come from this would usually considered "barbaric".
    Last edited by flamethrowerguy; 01-15-2009 at 08:04 AM.
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by flamethrowerguy View Post
    Where I come from this would usually considered "barbaric".
    I don't think he fully read your post. No need to jump at him
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

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    Default Re: Boys in shorts

    Quote Originally Posted by saffer View Post
    Just again showing how perplexing the question of who's right and who's wrong in war. barbarity begets barbarity.

    I'm pretty sure taking people into custody and then massacring them is more than "wrong," it's a war crime....and especially well-photographed one here...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    You sure aren't.

    The mass execution of the civilians was a war crime - this is a fact, no matter what the motivation of the German soldiers was.

    Still, considering the circumstances, it is a lot more understandable than the ethnic cleansing the Germans liked to do to Russian civilians.

    Crete isn't very big, and as I read it, the majority of the murders was committed in a certain town, which must have been near the site of the ambushing and killing of the Paratroopers. So the soldiers obviously assumed that those fellas were responsible for it. Knowing the Southern-European temper, I'm sure the Cretans also had absolutely no scruple showing their "discontentment" with the German occupation.

    And it's not like the German Military High Command really cared to much about the lawful conduct of war, and they probably thought that the execution of anybody suspected to be a partisan would not only crush/deter resistance, but also boost the morale of the soldiers.

    I'm sure as heck that I would want revenge, too, if I saw my comrades slaughtered and tortured to death by an otherwise invisible enemy...
    Well, I'd like to know the specific Fallschirmjäger gripes about their treatment meted out by Cretan civilians using stone age weapons and ancient firearms....

    Was it that they were attacked in the very vulnerable few minutes from which they parachuted down, landed, and were able to collect their weapons? Because the US 82d Airborne would have had cause to massacre a lot of Germans in Normandy if that were the case.

    I doubt the Cretan civilian population had very much time to torture anyone. I think it might be more a case of the paratroops setting the tone for their occupation, and being embarrassed about suffering such high casualties in what was ultimately a Pyrrhic victory...

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