Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 56

Thread: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    131

    Default The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Could the Axis powers have consolidated their lightning victories of 1939-42 in such a way as to achieve ultimate victory? Military historians have long debated the strategic decisions that might have tipped the war in Hitler's and Hirohito's way. Leaving aside unlikely scenarios like a successful German invasion of Britain in 1940, a cancellation of Operation Barbarossa or a Japanese decision to attack the Soviet Union rather then the United States, four more or less plausible possibilities have been suggested:


    1. Hitler might have accepted his military leaders' advice (notably that of Admiral Raeder) and focused his attention on winning the war in the Mediterranean in 1941, before invading the Soviet Union. He might, fir example, have struck across the Eastern Mediterranean to Cyprus, Lebanon, and Syria; or through Turkey (violating her neutrality) towards the Caucacus; or across Egypt to Suez and beyond. Even as it was, the British positions in Malta and Egypt were acutely vulnerable . Rommel might well have been able to drive the British out of Egypt if he had been sent the twenty-nine German divisions that were sitting more or less idle in Western Europe.

    2. Alternatively, Hitler might have diverted more resources into winning the battle of the Atlantic in 1942. Certainly, the German submarines were inflicting severe losses on Allied shipping throughout 1942 and into the spring of 1943.

    3. Hitler might have waged his war against the Soviet Union more intelligently. Again, he might have listened to the experts (Halder and Guderian among them), who advised him to concentrate German efforts on capturing Moscow rather than diverting Field Marshal Gerd Von Rundstedt's Army Group southward toward Kiev. In a similar vein, might not have squandered his 6th Army so profligately at Stalingrad; Alan Brooke's fear was that Paules might instead conquer the Caucasus, opening the way to the Caspian sea and the Persian Gulf oilfields.

    4. The Japanese could have waged a different war against the Western powers, attacking Ceylon rather then Port Moresby and Midway in 1942 in order to challenge British dominance of the Indian ocean. They might also have diverted troops away from China and Manchuria- where 56 per cent of their overseas forces were still stationed at the end of the war- to reinforce their line of defense in the Pacific.

    The difficulty with all these counterfactuals- aside from their postulating a Hitler who was not as deaf to expert military advice as the real Hitler was- is that virtually none of them suggests a way in which the Axis powers could have overcome the overwhelming economic odds against them once they had taken on simultaneously the British Empire, the United States and the Soviet Union.

    To be sure, the blitzkrieg campaigns of 1939-42 narrowed the economic gap between the Axis and Allies. The Germans very succesfully sucked resources out of occupied Western Europe; at their in 1943 unrequited transfers from France amounted to 8 per cent of German gross national product, equivalent to a third of pre-war French national income. Germany qll but monopolized the exports of the West European countries she occupied. The former Czechoslovakia, to, was substantial net contributor to the German war effort. So deep did Operation Barbarbossa and subsequent offensives penetrate that they captured more than half of Soviet industrial capacity. More over, the Germans were able to treat their empire as a bottomless reservoir of cheap labor. Foreign workers accounted for a fifth of active civilian labor force by 1943. After being put in charge of German armaments production, Albert Speer galvanized the Reich's economy, almost trebling weapons output between 1941 and 1944 by imposing standardization on the manufactures and achieving startling improvements in productivity. The Japanese also performes feat of economic mobilization, increasing aircraft production by a factor of five and a half between 1941 and 1944.

    Yet it was nowhere near enough. The Big Three had vastly superior material resources. In 1940, when Germany and Italy had faced Britian and France, the latter combination's total economic output had been roughly two-thirds that of the other side;s. The defeat of France and Poland lengthened the odds against Britain, but the German invasion of the Soviet Union restored economic balance. With the entry of the United States into the war, the scales tipped the other way; indeed, they all toppled over. Combined Allied GDP was twice that of the principal Axis powers and their dependencies in 1942. It was roughly three times in 1943, and the ratio continued to rise as the war went on, largely as a result of the rapid growth of the US economy. Between 1942 and 1944 American military spending was nearly twice that of the Germany and Japan combined. It is difficult to see how different strategic decisions could have prevented this disastrous lengthening of economic odds against Axis victory. So much increment in Allied production simply lay beyond the reach of Axis arms, in the United States and beyond the Urals. Moreover, the additional oilfields that might have come within Hitler's reach had he fought the war differently were still far too modest in their output to have narrowed significantly the petroleum gap between the two sides.

    It is important also to bear in mind that Axis powers were fighting not only against the British,Russians and Americans; they were fighting against the combined forces of the British, Russian and American empires as well. The total numbers of men fielded by various parts of the British Empire were immense. All told, the United Kingdom itself mobolized just under six million men and women. But an additional 5.1 million came from India, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. Victories like El Alamein and even more so Imphal were victories for imperial forces as much as for British forces; the colonial commitment to the Empire proved every bit as strong as in the First World War. Two and a half million Indians joined the British Indian Army. The Red Army was also much more than just a Russian army. In January 1944 Russians accounted for 58 per cent of the 200 infantry divisions from which record were available, but Ukrainians accounted for 22 per cent, an order of magnitude more than fought on the German side. Half the soldiers of the Soviet 62nd Army at Stalingrad were not Russians. The American army, too, was ethhnically diverse. Although they were kept in segregated units, African-Americans accounted for 11 per cent of the total US forces mobilized and fought in all major campaigns Operation Torch on wards. Two of the six serviceman who Raised the stars and stripes on Iwo Jima were of foregion origan; one was Pima Indian. A man once said"America is the international country.... Our Army had Yugoslavs and Frenchmen and Austrians, and Czechs and Norwegians in it, and everywhere our Army goes in Europe, a man can turn to the private beside him and say:Hey, Mac, what's this furriner saying?'..... And Mac will be able to translate. This is where we are lucky. No other country has such a fund of men who speak the languages of the lands we must invade.... Just as truly Europe once invaded us, with wave after wave of immigrants, now we are invading Europe, with wave after wave of sons of immigrants.".
    Last edited by Comrade Commisar; 01-07-2009 at 10:42 PM.
    You may be thankful that 20 years from now when you are sitting at by the fireplace with your granson on your knee and he askes you what you did in the great World War II, you won't have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your granddaddy shovelled shit in Louisiana." No, sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and sonofagoddamnedbitch name Georgie Patton!"

    -George Patton

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,278

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Quote Originally Posted by Comrade Commisar View Post
    4. The Japanese could have waged a different war against the Western powers, attacking Ceylon rather then Port Moresby and Midway in 1942 in order to challenge British dominance of the Indian ocean. They might also have diverted troops away from China and Manchuria- where 56 per cent of their overseas forces were still stationed at the end of the war- to reinforce their line of defense in the Pacific.

    The difficulty with all these counterfactuals- aside from their postulating a Hitler who was not as deaf to expert military advice as the real Hitler was- is that virtually none of them suggests a way in which the Axis powers could have overcome the overwhelming economic odds against them once they had taken on simultaneously the British Empire, the United States and the Soviet Union.
    Japan's position might have been sustainable had it not attacked Pearl Harbor and the Philippines, thus avoiding bringing America into the war, and if it had limited its advance to Malaya and the NEI which gave it all the resources it needed and was within its shipping and military capacity to exploit and defend.

    The problem with this scenario is that the Philippines stood astride the LOC between Japan and its conquests, with the risk that the Americans might prevent it exploiting its conquests. So the Philippines had to be taken, which necessitated neutralising the USN's predictable response by attacking Pearl.

    Attacking Ceylon would have been an unnecessary waste of resources and lengthening of LOC, although in it was seriously considered, because the RN in the Indian Ocean posed little threat to Japan's conquests in Malaya and the NEI, not least because the RN could not adequately supply that modest fleet when higher priority was given to the RN deployed against Germany and Italy closer to home.

    Had Japan left America out of the war, the prospect of Axis success improves considerably. The prospect might improve a little more if Japan uses forces and resources that were actually deployed unprofitably east of the NEI to attack the Soviets on the Manchurian border, which might divert forces arrayed against the Germans or at least cause the Soviets to hold forces in reserve against the need to deploy them against Japan rather than use them against the Germans. This assumes that the considerable Soviet forces already on the border do not defeat Japan as they had a couple of years earlier.

    Japan could not afford to divert forces from Manchuria, partly for purely military reasons but also because China was too valuable to it to risk losing while trying to gain relatively inconsequential islands in the Pacific.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    131

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    I was just stating a a opinion given by historians.
    You may be thankful that 20 years from now when you are sitting at by the fireplace with your granson on your knee and he askes you what you did in the great World War II, you won't have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your granddaddy shovelled shit in Louisiana." No, sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and sonofagoddamnedbitch name Georgie Patton!"

    -George Patton

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    348

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    One thing that would have changed the World War II fundamentally: Hitler managing to seize the entire Soviet Union (after that Nazi Germany would have had about the same amount of natural resources as the United States).

    This could have been done with one change:
    In 1940 Germany produced about 1800 tanks, in 1944 about 19000 tanks. So basically Hitler attacked the Soviet Union with 10% of the strenght he could have used. Just double the military production and the strike against Soviet Union could have (most likely) been crushing (considering that even Hitler's "weak mini-attack" annihilated the entire Red Army located in the western part of the Soviet Union).

    _
    Amazing Metal Detector Finds.
    Hand-picked World War II and Third Reich news every day.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Buffalo, New York
    Posts
    7,404

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Quote Originally Posted by alephh View Post
    One thing that would have changed the World War II fundamentally: Hitler managing to seize the entire Soviet Union (after that Nazi Germany would have had about the same amount of natural resources as the United States).

    This could have been done with one change:
    In 1940 Germany produced about 1800 tanks, in 1944 about 19000 tanks. So basically Hitler attacked the Soviet Union with 10% of the strenght he could have used. Just double the military production and the strike against Soviet Union could have (most likely) been crushing (considering that even Hitler's "weak mini-attack" annihilated the entire Red Army located in the western part of the Soviet Union).

    _

    That wasn't just about available resources though. Germany did not initiate and transition to a full war economy until 1942 --much too late...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    131

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    True they were ready for lighting war but not a siege war.
    You may be thankful that 20 years from now when you are sitting at by the fireplace with your granson on your knee and he askes you what you did in the great World War II, you won't have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your granddaddy shovelled shit in Louisiana." No, sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and sonofagoddamnedbitch name Georgie Patton!"

    -George Patton

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Halifax & Heidelberg
    Posts
    1,231

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    That wasn't just about available resources though. Germany did not initiate and transition to a full war economy until 1942 --much too late...
    Kinda shows that the High Command never intended to get into another World War. They expected quick victories and never intended to fight a long war. To think that the scientific geniuses that would create and built King Tigers, V1/V2s, Jets, etc were driving trucks and fighting in the trenches appears absurd right now.

    Do you think a focus on scientific research right from the outset 1939 could have turned things around for Germany as well? Imagine if they had 3 more years - and most importantly the higher availability of resources at the beginning - to perfect their weaponry.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Buffalo, New York
    Posts
    7,404

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Quote Originally Posted by Schuultz View Post
    Kinda shows that the High Command never intended to get into another World War. They expected quick victories and never intended to fight a long war. To think that the scientific geniuses that would create and built King Tigers, V1/V2s, Jets, etc were driving trucks and fighting in the trenches appears absurd right now.

    Do you think a focus on scientific research right from the outset 1939 could have turned things around for Germany as well? Imagine if they had 3 more years - and most importantly the higher availability of resources at the beginning - to perfect their weaponry.
    I wonder if the Germans would have been better served by actually providing their rear echelon logistical troops with trucks instead of horses and carts...and ones not captured from the French. Remember, the Tiger was on the drawing board as a "heavy breakthrough tank" as early as 1937 I think (I could be wrong), but was only implemented after the shock of the T-34, unlike the German tanks, and easily massed produced marvel of simplicity that worked very well if it is a little overrated in some aspects. Much of the German "wonder weapons" were as much a response to their industrial deficiencies and more serviceable Allied weaponry as they were part of any (very disorganized) plan...

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    The Germans should have finished off France and England before attacking the Soviet Union.

    First - beat the French
    Second - Knock the English out of north Africa and head for the middle east
    Third - Let your allies the Japanese tear up the British Empire from India to Singapore to Australia
    Fourth - Starve the English into submission with U-Boats
    Fifth- At least delay the entry of the United States into the war - when Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, don't declare war on the United States
    Sixth - Consolidate your holdings, then go after the Soviet Union with everything you've got, and smash them flat
    Seventh- When the United States has finished wiping the floor with Japan, sign a treaty with the U.S.A. and build up your economy and technology
    Eighth- Around 1965 or so, go after the U.S.A.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Halifax & Heidelberg
    Posts
    1,231

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Quote Originally Posted by EddieO View Post
    The Germans should have finished off France and England before attacking the Soviet Union.

    First - beat the French
    Second - Knock the English out of north Africa and head for the middle east
    Third - Let your allies the Japanese tear up the British Empire from India to Singapore to Australia
    Fourth - Starve the English into submission with U-Boats
    Fifth- At least delay the entry of the United States into the war - when Japan attacks Pearl Harbor, don't declare war on the United States
    Sixth - Consolidate your holdings, then go after the Soviet Union with everything you've got, and smash them flat
    Seventh- When the United States has finished wiping the floor with Japan, sign a treaty with the U.S.A. and build up your economy and technology
    Eighth- Around 1965 or so, go after the U.S.A.
    And you think that would've worked?
    The problem is that the Soviet Union would have invaded Germany as soon as it turned it's back. You don't really believe that two Dictators with as radically different perspectives would have shared a border for long without attacking each other?
    And Stalin wouldn't have let Germany defeat England, as this would have allowed Hitler to concentrate all its forces on Russia - which he would have wanted to avoid at all costs.
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    It would be far cheaper in terms of troops and materiel to maintain a defensive posture against Stalin as long as possible. The longer the Reich avoided a two front war the better their chances would be, make Stalin make the first offensive move and tear him up in Poland, rather than letting him tear up the German armies in Russia

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Johannesburg, South Africa
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    When you consider Stalin's reaction even after Germany invaded Russia, together with Russo-German pact that Stalin so eagerly signed, I don't think he would have invaded Germany at all regardless of what Germany achieved in the West. Remember there was no direct route into Germany so Hitler would have had time to meet any invation long before it got to Germany. I agree Hitler should have finished the job in the West first, at the same time he should have and could have convinced Japan to lay off the Pacific rim for awhile and concentrate fully on securing China.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    One very important factor to consider here is the fact that Hitler never really wanted war with Britain and also never wanted to hurt the British Empire, it was essentially forced on him after he miscalculated the British response to the invasion of Poland. He also never actually intended to implement invasion plans for Britain either.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Johannesburg, South Africa
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Quite right and if he didn't invade Poland (only needed that for access to Russia) he could have pitched his entire military strength against the West.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Johannesburg, South Africa
    Posts
    25

    Default Re: The Axis? Doomed from the outset?

    Quote Originally Posted by saffer View Post
    When you consider Stalin's reaction even after Germany invaded Russia, together with Russo-German pact that Stalin so eagerly signed, I don't think he would have invaded Germany at all regardless of what Germany achieved in the West. Remember there was no direct route into Germany so Hitler would have had time to meet any invation long before it got to Germany. I agree Hitler should have finished the job in the West first, at the same time he should have and could have convinced Japan to lay off the Pacific rim for awhile and concentrate fully on securing China.

    Jeez guys, reading my post again it comes across (incorrectly) that I actually wished the Nazis won the war. I apologise for that, it's simply that I sometimes get caught up in the strategy and forget about the politics for a few moments.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •