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Thread: The Italian aircraft armament.

  1. #16
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    Wow, great post. I can't contribute at all, but I enjoyed the read and all the photos too
    Thank you very much for your comment.

    Scotti M1933 cal 12,7mm

    Alfredo Scotti had also one of its gas operated guns modified to shoot the heavy machinegun caliber. It was adopted in a more limited manner than the Breda .50, mostly for turret defensive emplacements in several types of bombers, recce and transports. The rate of fire was slightly higher than its predecessor. Probably the best characteristics was the lesser weight.



    The open bolt action favoured refrigeration and avoided cook-off of the ammunition after long burst, but again denied the adaptation of a synchronization mechanism.

    Scotti also proposed a wing variant with remote charging but it did not entered in service in Service with the Regia Aeronautica probably because at that time the italians were interested in a 20 mm weapon.

    Ventral turret, Savoia SM 84 bomber.



    Scotti 12,7mm in Lanciani type 1 manually operated turret, the rear tube was the aerodinamic counterweight.


    Lanciani type 1 dorsal turret above Fiat RS 14



    Operator of a Lanciani type 1 turret depicted inside the CANT Z 1007 bomber.
    Last edited by Panzerknacker; 11-30-2008 at 04:39 PM.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    Side fuselage Scottis, P-108.




    Characteristics Scotti M1933:

    Caliber: 12,7x81 semirimmed

    Action: gas operated , rotating bolt lock.

    Refrigeration: air

    Feeding: desintegrable metallic belt

    Charging; manually charged

    Lenght: 1170mm

    Rate of fire: 750 rounds per minute

    Muzzle velocity: 760 mps.

    Weight: 21 kg.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    12,7x81SR ammunition.

    The ammo employed in the italian heavy machineguns was originally designed by Vickers in 1920s, after the fauilure of the "class B" Mg chambered for this round, the cartrigde was slightly modified ( from rimless to semi rimmed) and offered for export.
    Both italy and Japan eventually used it in WW2.

    From left to right:

    a) Ball
    b) FMJ Tracer
    c) Armor piercing with hardened steel core




    d) Incendiary
    e) AP-Incendiary without tracer, both bullets had a blue tip
    .



    There was also a "scopiante" fully explosive bullet with impact fuze, despite the fact many experts considered the 20mm as the minimum practical diameter for a HE shell the italians didnt agreed, and used a generous quantity of explosives in the fighters ammunition belt.
    This type of projectile was indicated by a yellow band.



    Muzzle velocity of the 12,7x81mm ammo varied between 750 and 771mps, projectile weight between 32 to 38,5 grams.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    True, most MFG's of munitions did not consider the 12.7 or .50 cal projos to be worth the trouble of using an HE filling. this was flawed thinking, as in anti aircraft, and ground support roles this type of ammo would have been very helpful. There isnt alot to an airframe, or light skinned vehicle, so even a small amount of explosive could produce more damage than plain ball, or even incendiary.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    Italians, japanese, Germans and Russian employed rifle calibre explosive ammunition during ww2. Incidentaly the modern Raufoss "mark 211" used by the US Army and USMC snipers in their 50 calibers rifles is also a explosive-incendiary with armor pirecing capabilities.

    The problem in ww2 was the fuze technology wich occupied a lot of space in the bullet leaving litttle to the explosive content.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    Mauser MG 151/20

    One of the most bizarres topic of WW2 italian aircarft armament of how they failed to provide a 20mm gun. The Regia aeronautica purchased some Oerlikon "L" cannon in early 1930s for seaplanes, but just in small quantities.
    They have also two army/navy AAA full automatic guns, both chambered for the german 20x138B cartrigde; the Breda 20/65 and the Isotta-Fraschini (Scotti design) 20/70, however there were no attemps to convert that weapons in airborne guns.

    In lieu of a modern fast firing 20 mm cannon indigenous design for aircraft the italian purchased the Mauser reliable MG 151 and adapted it to several types of fighters.

    For detailed information on the MG 151/20 and its ammunition:

    http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...?t=4127&page=3

    http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...?t=4127&page=4


    Reggiane Re-2001 CN, 2 Mausers under wings.


    Reggiane Re-2005 2 x 20 mm Mauser in wings plus one in the engine.




    Servicing the starboard Mauser in a Fiat G-55.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    -Long and short gun cover in Fiat G-55 of the ANR.

    - Squematic of engine and wing emplacement in Fiat G-56

    - 6 x MG 151 in project Fiat G-58









  8. #23
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    Breda dal 37/54



    This was the standard Italian close-range AA weapon used on larger ships during World War II. The guns used in the Model 1932 mountings were gas operated, water-cooled with a recirculating pump, but the others were air-cooled. The magazines held only six rounds, but it was possible to load them one after the other and thus maintain a high rate of fire.
    The adaptation for aircraft was first requested in 1941 and took place in 1942.

    A single Fiat BR 20 was equipped with a 37mm gun in a solid nose, it was designated BR 20Ca ( ca for Cannoncino, aircraft cannon) . More serious attemp took place in the Fiat Cansa C 20 and Savoia Marchetti SM 89 attack bombers, wich were designed to be the italian Henschel Hs-129s but faster and with better bomb load. The prototypes of this models first flew in 1940, however the 37mm armed variants did it in mid 1943 when the final was close for Italy and they only remained as a experimental airplanes.



    Last edited by Panzerknacker; 12-07-2008 at 09:32 AM.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    More images of the 37mm gun.

    In Fiat Cansa FC 20 ter. The gun is laying in a side in order to be feed from above.




    2 x 37mm, Savoia Marchetti SM 89.


  10. #25
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    47 mm autocannon:

    This gun was made around the infantry AT cartrigde 47/32 Breda. It seems it was used only in the Breda 88 and Fiat AS 14.









    Last edited by Panzerknacker; 12-11-2008 at 07:16 PM.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    The 47 mm gun installed in Breda Ba 88 (underfuselage)




    In the nose of Fiat AS 14 attack aircraft.




  12. #27
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    Ansaldo 102mm/40.



    In late 1942 the Regia Aeronautica began to explore using its larger bomber, the Piaggio P-108B as a long rance maritime recce and attack aircraft, much like the way as the Fw 200 employment in the Luftwaffe.

    For that task several types of armament were tested in this aircraft, including radio controlled topredos and armor piercing bombs. However the closeness to enemy Flak remained as a problem. An alternative to attack transport ships and destroyed was to employ heavy artillery piece.

    Originally a 75 mm antitank cannon was to be used, but eventually the heavier 102mm was selected to arm the P-108A ( A for artigliere, artilleryman)

    The Ansaldo fist tested the gun in ground shooting inside a mock up nose in october 1942.
    In april 1943 2 P-108A were ready for test.

    Ansaldo`s 102mm howitzer was emplaced in a solid nose aimed by the copilot with a Reflex San Giorgio gunsight with a line of fire tangent up to 4000 meters. It had weight of 680 kg, and was manually loaded from a revolving ammunition dispenser of 6 rounds. A total of 53 round could be carried in the frontal section of the aircraft, the complete gun ad related devices/ammunition weight over 1500 kilos. Some minor damage to the nose section forced to use a steel sheet to protect the structure from the muzzle blast.



    The Piaggio P-108A was tested intensively until september 1943, the 4000 meters range was saw as excesive and most of the shots were carried out at 1500 metes for better view of the target. there is no information if this type entered in action. One was captured by the Luftwaffe and tested as well in Rechlin in early 1944.

    Last edited by Panzerknacker; 12-28-2008 at 02:01 PM.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    I forgot to mention that the muzzle velocity of the 44 calibres 102 mm gun was 700mps. Armor penetration with apc projectile 165 mm @ 500 meters.


  14. #29
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    The only Fiat fighter ever to carry 12,7 mm Breda S.A.F.A.Ts in the wings, the G50 bis A, the emplacement was not quite simple adding 0,8 meters to the wingspan.



    Last edited by Panzerknacker; 02-10-2010 at 07:37 PM.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: The Italian aircraft armament.

    Hello Panzerknacker, it is an excellent post that you made here, but I would like to bring a supplementary information has those that will read it, it is that all this beautiful weapons had a big default, them n' were not particularly efficient, because most suffered overheating and a lack cruel from rate of shooting, besides they were sensitive to their environment and stopped themselves easily. Yet their munitions were effective, but most these weapons endured old conception and especially of uselessly complicated breech mechanism. There is what I could bring you like information while hoping that it helps you a few more.
    Fred regards
    He who asks a question remains ignorant five minutes, who does not ask remains ignorant of his life.

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