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Thread: Scharfschützen, snipers, weapons and tactics.

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    tanks for remenber the germans snipers of ww2 and for remenber the best rifle in the world "k98" realy i love here .......!
    for me the k98 best than the "russian mosen nanght" and the germans sniper is the best sniper in the world war 2............viva les tireurs d'elite

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.



    Now THAT is a smart idea this guy had.

    Notice the snipers rifle has a hole in the rear scope ring base and a "V" in the front scope ring base. He can use the open sights as well as the scope.

    It's even smarter than most think. It allows you to sight in the open sights, say at 300 meters, then sight in the scope at whatever they decide as their base range for the scope. Then look with the scope at 50 meters, and notice where the open sights look at the same range. Then keep that relationship in mind.

    That way you can check your scope real easy any day of the week. Just put the sights on a target at 50 meters, and then look through the scope and verify the alighment relationship is on.

    If they drop the rifle or bang it somehow and worry about the alighment, a quick check will tell the tell.

    That's the setup you want!

    Deaf

  3. #33

    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post

    Now THAT is a smart idea this guy had.
    It's not his idea, its pretty standard on a lot of sniper set-ups. Keep in mind that soldiers don't get to choose their kit like some computer game, it is issued to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
    That way you can check your scope real easy any day of the week. Just put the sights on a target at 50 meters, and then look through the scope and verify the alighment relationship is on.
    No you can't, at least not without a rest to keep the rifle in a fixed position, you see as you shift your head from looking down the sights to looking down the scope your body changes position and your original hold is lost. This comes from experience, both with lazy bore sighting and my mosin sniper (which also allows for use of iron sights).

  4. #34

    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Funny thing, seems that the trees were not so bad after all, sniper in italy above a pinetree.

    Quite probably a posed photo Panzer, although the book, The German Sniper 1914-1945 has an extract from a German training manual showing how to position in a tree. So I am sure that under very specific circumstances trees have their use.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by bas View Post
    Quite probably a posed photo Panzer, although the book, The German Sniper 1914-1945 has an extract from a German training manual showing how to position in a tree. So I am sure that under very specific circumstances trees have their use.
    Yeah, like when there are no .50 caliber machine-guns around...

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quite probably a posed photo Panzer, although the book, The German Sniper 1914-1945 has an extract from a German training manual showing how to position in a tree. So I am sure that under very specific circumstances trees have their use.

    Probably so, but as you said, could be used in special cases (desperation?) the tree is a good observation plataform but once you are spotted you are dead. I ve hunted with shotgun a couple of small wild hogs from a tree ( shotgun with ball/slug that is) and my body hurted for 2 days, quite unconfortable.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Japanese used same tactic, abet with LOTS more camouflage, for sniping.

    But as everyone here can see, that's a good way to die.

    If you read the book, "A Rifleman Went to War", by McBride (it's about McBride's experience in WW1 as both a sniper and machine gunner) you will find a few German snipers actually did use trees.

    Unfortunately he writes about one time where they figured out where the sniper was in the trees and zeroed in a couple of machineguns and that was the end of that.

    More interestingly, he wrote about rummaging through lots of different ’06 ammo, shooting them to find which lot was the most accurate, and from then on out tried to get just that lot of ammo for their snipping.

    John George, in his book, "Shots Fired in Anger", also wrote about Japanese snipers in trees and the best medicine for them.

    Deaf

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by bas View Post
    No you can't, at least not without a rest to keep the rifle in a fixed position, you see as you shift your head from looking down the sights to looking down the scope your body changes position and your original hold is lost. This comes from experience, both with lazy bore sighting and my mosin sniper (which also allows for use of iron sights).

    Well hopefully you would have a rest! Not many sharpshooters do their plinking off hand at longer ranges.

    I've used that method with Ruger Mini-14s (military peep and over-the-action scopes) and see-through scope mounts. I find it very handy to verify alignment.

    Deaf

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    I've posted this before in some other forgotten thread, but it's relevant here.

    Buna, Papua, 28 December 1942: These three photographs show an Australian Bren gunner firing at a Japanese sniper position in a palm tree, the palm tree after it had been fired upon, and the body of the Japanese sniper at the base of the palm tree. The Bren gunner’s technique was to fire several bursts at a point six feet from the top of the tree, so weakening its trunk. The weight of the sniper then caused the tree to break and he was killed when he hit the ground 60 feet below.
    http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/013952

    http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/013965

    http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/013937


    That doesn't alter the fact that Japanese snipers in trees in the jungle could be very effective for longish times as they were adept at camouflage and jungle trees and surrounding jungle gave them good cover.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  10. #40

    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
    Well hopefully you would have a rest! Not many sharpshooters do their plinking off hand at longer ranges.
    Sure they use what ever features are available to rest their rifle on, but WWII snipers (or modern day snipers) certainly did not carry a bench mountable rifle rest into the field (they weren't even issued bi-pods). And in order to do what you suggest, this is the type of rest you would need, a bipod or branch is not sufficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
    I've used that method with Ruger Mini-14s (military peep and over-the-action scopes) and see-through scope mounts. I find it very handy to verify alignment.

    Deaf
    I just tried it out with my SVD, using a fixed object as my rest and a sign hanging on a fence 70-80m away and just even the general shake natural to all shooting invalidated your idea, but as I moved my head up to the scope I could see the rifle move position noticably.

    Besides, military iron sights are just too rough to compare to the optics of a scope.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    That doesn't alter the fact that Japanese snipers in trees in the jungle could be very effective for longish times as they were adept at camouflage and jungle trees and surrounding jungle gave them good cover.
    And that they were probably prepared to keep fighting to the death so weren't really planning a escape route.

  12. #42

    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers, weapons and tactics.

    Extract from The German Sniper 1914- 1945 P.g. 133

    While German training manuals did depict riflemen in trees, this was merely standard training for the German soldier. Tree slings were reportably issued for this purpose and it is more than likely that they were utilized primarily by observers and casual riflemen. Even though various sharpshooter training courses did elaborate on the best methods of climbing trees to secure an advantages firing position, this was an effort to prepare the sniping specialists for any eventuality rather than an exercise resulting in self-destruction

    There were, no doubt circumstances that may have necessitated the use of a tree "hide" by true snipers, but when one considers the extreme difficulty in obtaining a position required for accuracy while so precariously perched and the difficulty in withdrawing from such a position, it seems doubtful that an accomplished sniper would make extensive use of such positions.
    Actually thinking about that sentence makes you wonder at just how effective the Japanese snipers actually were. I can't believe that it would be the easiest to get in an accurate shot from the top of a swaying palm tree. I'm sure that they were effective in inspiring fear in allied troops, but did they account for a high number of casualities?

    Also Rising Sun, looking at those pictures, I have to wonder if there isn't a little Aussi humor at play there. It would have taken quite a few magazines from a bren gun to actually weaken the trunk enough so that it would break. Easier to spray the tree and kill the sniper and then shoot the top off to give the journalists a nice story and photos.
    Last edited by bas; 01-04-2010 at 06:24 AM.

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers weapons and tactics.

    Quote Originally Posted by bas View Post
    I just tried it out with my SVD, using a fixed object as my rest and a sign hanging on a fence 70-80m away and just even the general shake natural to all shooting invalidated your idea, but as I moved my head up to the scope I could see the rifle move position noticably.

    Besides, military iron sights are just too rough to compare to the optics of a scope.

    Bas, you are not trying to sight the rifle in, just making sure the scope has not been knocked out of alignment (as can happen if you drop the rifle or bump the scope.)

    And a bipod works fine. Just don't touch the stock once you have aimed the rifle at a target. Even a sand bag will do. Just rest the gun on it and have it point at the target. Don't touch the rifle. And then check the sights.

    Quote Originally Posted by bas View Post
    Actually thinking about that sentence makes you wonder at just how effective the Japanese snipers actually were. I can't believe that it would be the easiest to get in an accurate shot from the top of a swaying palm tree. I'm sure that they were effective in inspiring fear in allied troops, but did they account for a high number of casualities?
    Since usually they were not shooting 100 yards, it would work. Not at 600, but in jungles 100 yards is alot.

    Deaf
    Last edited by Deaf Smith; 01-04-2010 at 06:40 PM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Scharfschützen, snipers, weapons and tactics.

    3 more photos of scharfschütze in the west extracted from the german federal archives, dated 1944.






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