Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 97

Thread: German war dead no one wants to remember

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Hermosa Beach, CA
    Posts
    131

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by larryparamedic View Post
    I consider any man who dies in combat a soldier that deserves honor no matter what nation or side he fought for.
    When it comes to the real reasons soldiers fight, we are all the same.
    I can see the difficulty in a country honoring dead that potentially were killers of innocents, but the greater majority of these men were common troops which is precisely why they were forgotten.

    About Germany today, I know here in the Midwest USA where I've lived most of my life, they still teach the world wars through school, and there are many books, memorials and monuments dedicated to WW2 in this country, but I think you would be surprised just how supportive we in this country are of a free Germany doing it's thing.
    We think nowadays very little of those times. Many germans live in this country now, and germans today are not looked at in anyway as "Nazis".
    Americans feel more like shaking hands after a hard fight. We don't hold war grudges.
    Very true on the never ending field of battle
    You may be thankful that 20 years from now when you are sitting at by the fireplace with your granson on your knee and he askes you what you did in the great World War II, you won't have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, "Well, your granddaddy shovelled shit in Louisiana." No, sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, "Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and sonofagoddamnedbitch name Georgie Patton!"

    -George Patton

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    93

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    I have lived half of my life in Germany, and have had several discussions on these pride vs guild issues with German veteran family members.

    So to make it short, I think there is a great deal of misunderstanding towards the issue of pride in remembering the members of the German Wermacht or Waffen SS. I have posted a doku made at the controversial Wermacht exibition, in the dokumentary German vets are disscussing
    the crimes of the regular German army.

    Before you express any opinion, it is important to deeply understand the difference, between those fighting defending their country, and those fighting for an Ideology like Nazism.

    The reason why so few Germans are/was proud their deeds in WW2, is that they actually have nothing to be proud of. They did not fight for, or archived a great collective goal like the Allied did, the pride felt today by some German veterans are more due to individual achievements, or the technical skills they possessed during ww2. I will never downgrade the pride of what individual German soldiers experienced through combat, but there is a great difference due to the course, therefore I prefer to remember them as human beings, and not as soldiers.
    Last edited by freyir_33; 03-08-2009 at 10:24 AM.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,281

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    The reason why so few Germans are/was proud their deeds in WW2, is that they actually have nothing to be proud of.
    I think that, from a purely military prowess point of view, Germans have a lot to be proud of in WWII. They achieved some great military feats in western and eastern Europe, the Balkans, and North Africa.

    By the second half of 1941 Germany had defeated France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, and Greece, among others, and was giving Britain a flogging in the Mediterranean and North Africa while giving the Soviets a flogging on their home ground. Not bad for a nation with a fraction of the population of the various nations it took on and mostly conquered or fought without being defeated to that point.

    Given the previous conduct of the American and British Allies, such as in exploiting China, I don't think there is any great moral difference in Germany trying to take by force of arms what, for example, Britain took in India and China. As for French and Dutch conduct in acquiring and managing their colonial possessions, there's not a lot of ground there for moral superiority to condemn German expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    They did not fight for, or archived a great collective goal like the Allied did ...
    I think Germany did fight for and temporarily achieved a great collective goal, which was German expansion, and it went pretty close to achieving it permanently in a highly impressive contest with a number of nations which, combined, vastly outweighed Germany militarily and in resources.

    As for the great collective Allied goal, America didn't want to get involved in the European war, not least because some of its major corporations were making great profits from one or both sides of the conflict. America was dragged in only by Japan's adventurous assault on America.

    Germany wasn't doing anything that other European nations hadn't been doing in the centuries before and the 70 or so years since Germany became a nation, nor was it expressing anything in the way of national arrogance and expansionism that other European nations hadn't been doing for centuries, such as Napoleon invading Russia which in principle was no better and no worse than Germany invading the USSR.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 03-08-2009 at 11:30 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    California, USA
    Posts
    31

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Honoring German War Dead luckily did happen by some people in formerly occupied lands.
    In spite of our country (NL) having been occupied by the Germans for almost 5 years to the day, my parents always made us respect the fallen soldiers, including the Germans. Case in point: Right across the river from my hometown, there were two graves of German soldiers. We often passed by there on our long weekend walks. My mother always made us stop and say a few prayers. She would say, they were very young and probably didn't want to be here. We weren't the only ones though, as frequently there were flowers on the two graves. Eventually, they were moved to the major German Cementery in IJsselstein. Of course we also visited the four allied cementeries in the area, also within walking distance from our home. One was American but its occupants were eventually all moved to the now one and only American cementery in NL, namely
    Margraten, in the south of Limburg province. May the all rest in peace.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Aachen/Aken/Aix-la-Chapelle
    Posts
    2,966

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by kuuk View Post
    Eventually, they were moved to the major German Cementery in IJsselstein.
    As kuuk mentioned by today Ijsselstein is the major German military cemetery in all of the Netherlands (31598 graves including 85 of WW1).
    Basically all German casualties in the Netherlands from the German invasion of May 1940 to the late war battles in and around the Netherlands (Market Garden, Hurtgenforest, Battle of the Bulge) are buried here.
    I've been there last November - directly after our Remembrance Day - and I can confirm these war dead are not forgotten - not even by their former enemies as my photos show:

    Bild 070.jpg
    Bild 071.jpg
    Bild 072.jpg
    Last edited by flamethrowerguy; 03-08-2009 at 05:23 PM.
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    93

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I think that, from a purely military prowess point of view, Germans have a lot to be proud of in WWII. They achieved some great military feats in western and eastern Europe, the Balkans, and North Africa.

    By the second half of 1941 Germany had defeated France, Belgium, Holland, Norway, and Greece, among others, and was giving Britain a flogging in the Mediterranean and North Africa while giving the Soviets a flogging on their home ground. Not bad for a nation with a fraction of the population of the various nations it took on and mostly conquered or fought without being defeated to that point.

    Given the previous conduct of the American and British Allies, such as in exploiting China, I don't think there is any great moral difference in Germany trying to take by force of arms what, for example, Britain took in India and China. As for French and Dutch conduct in acquiring and managing their colonial possessions, there's not a lot of ground there for moral superiority to condemn German expansion.



    I think Germany did fight for and temporarily achieved a great collective goal, which was German expansion, and it went pretty close to achieving it permanently in a highly impressive contest with a number of nations which, combined, vastly outweighed Germany militarily and in resources.

    As for the great collective Allied goal, America didn't want to get involved in the European war, not least because some of its major corporations were making great profits from one or both sides of the conflict. America was dragged in only by Japan's adventurous assault on America.

    Germany wasn't doing anything that other European nations hadn't been doing in the centuries before and the 70 or so years since Germany became a nation, nor was it expressing anything in the way of national arrogance and expansionism that other European nations hadn't been doing for centuries, such as Napoleon invading Russia which in principle was no better and no worse than Germany invading the USSR.
    Yes, the biggest problem today is not the deeds of the Wermacht SS etc, but that we have people like you who so openly (though indirectly) denies the war crimes committed of the third Reich. So,, try again, and find a more constructive argument, than comparing the third Reich with Napolion, or colonial England for that sake.

    Or simply study the ideology of National Socialism and it's consequences, and then come back and tell us if it's makes a difference.

    Chers

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,281

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    Yes, the biggest problem today is not the deeds of the Wermacht SS etc, but that we have people like you who so openly (though indirectly) denies the war crimes committed of the third Reich. So,, try again, and find a more constructive argument, than comparing the third Reich with Napolion, or colonial England for that sake.
    Try responding to what I wrote, rather than what you, through your blinkered and hostile view of Germany, think I wrote.

    I confined my comments to Germany's military prowess.

    As a point of clarification, the SS was never part of the Wehrmacht.

    And don't make such offensively stupid leaps of logic by accusing me of being a denier of Germany's war crimes. There is nothing in what I wrote which could possibly support such an idiotic comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    Or simply study the ideology of National Socialism and it's consequences, and then come back and tell us if it's makes a difference.
    I have studied it, and the Nazi era, off and on for about half a century, both informally and academically. I think I have a reasonable grasp of it by now.

    The ideology of National Socialism doesn't make any difference to the views expressed in my last post.

    I am well aware of Germany's war crimes and crimes against humanity, but they do not bear on the question of whether or not Germans are entitled to be proud of the purely military achievements of their nation independently of those crimes. And the same goes for Japan.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,281

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    So,, try again, and find a more constructive argument, than comparing the third Reich with Napolion, or colonial England for that sake.
    Oh, and by the way, in WWII each Axis power was engaged in its own war of colonial expansion, which was the whole purpose of their wars.

    So, my comparisons are apposite while your disparaging dismissal of them merely reveals your lack of understanding of history in general and WWII history in particular.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    93

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    "As a point of clarification, the SS was never part of the Wehrmacht.
    "
    I am well aware of that, a misunderstanding due to bad English, sorry.

    But I still find your comparison of the Nazi expansion with colonialism grotesque, and it do not serve to enlighten history any further, but rather downgrading the Nazi atrocities.

    I have lived in Germany many years, had discussions with many vets, and often been visiting the nearby KZ, where many Europeans lost their lives. So to make it short, the German Wehrmacht cleared the road for the holocaust, or took part themselves in war crimes, not only against humanity, but real people!, so I prefer to honer and remember them instead of the technical skills of the Wehrmacht.

    I can understand your fascination of German military from a technical point of view, but the history of National socialism is to complex just to be explained due a simple comparison with colonialism.
    Last edited by freyir_33; 03-09-2009 at 04:34 PM.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,281

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    But I still find your comparison of the Nazi expansion with colonialism grotesque
    What else would you call the acquisition of territories which then had the conquering power's governments installed in them to run those territories for the conquering power's benefit?

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    and it do not serve to enlighten history ant further, rather than downgrading the Nazi atrocities.
    You're the one who introduced Nazi atrocities.

    I was merely responding to your assertion that the Germans had nothing to be proud of in WWII. I maintain that they do, for the reasons previously set out.

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    So to make it short, the German Wehrmacht cleared the road for the holocaust
    I don’t think the Kriegsmarine had a lot to do with that.

    More importantly, the Holocaust process had started long before WWII and was an expression of Nazi Party ideology and activity, which did not involve any branch of the Wehrmacht.

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    or took part themselves in war crimes, not only against humanity, but real people!.
    A crime against humanity necessarily constitutes a crime against real people.

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    I can understand your fascination of German military from a technical point of view,
    I’m not fascinated by the German military or any military. I happen to think that all military activity is a spectacular waste of lives and resources and that it's a pity humans haven't found a better way to manage their affairs. But the fact remains that the Wehrmacht, notably the Heer, generally performed very well during WWII and, so far as purely military activities are concerned, Germans if they’re so minded are entitled to be proud of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by freyir_33 View Post
    but the history of National socialism is to complex just to be explained due a simple comparison with colonialism.
    I never said it was.

    I was talking about German expansion by military means, not the history of National Socialism which involved a much wider range of issues.

    So we come back to my question at the start of this post.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    93

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    First,,, your argument that the Wermacht did not take part in the holocaust is not true, the hole philosophy of the Nazis was the driving force of the Wermacht, who from the first day of Barbarossa had the order to execute all red Army Commissars due to political reasons.

    And they did*, the Grand Father of my Ex told me face to face(he served as a member of the Wermacht in Russia).

    Secondly, you can't separate the Wermacht from the Nazies on behalf of your needs, because the holocaust could not have been realized without the conquests done by the wermacht, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine. Thought the primary task's of the wermacht was of pure military nature.

    So for my part,,combat alone makes no man worth any admiration, only the value of his deeds.

    *(there are reports where Wermacht officers denied to take part of executions, mostly they where not sanctioned for it)
    Last edited by freyir_33; 03-09-2009 at 02:41 PM.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Southern Russia , Krasnodar
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Thanks to the lobbying work and fundraising of the German War Graves Commission there are now 20 German military cemeteries in Russia, still too few to accomodate the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who died in epic encounters like the Siege of Leningrad. Search teams still go out during the summer. German soldiers, on active service or in reserve units, travel to Russia and elsewhere to help.
    This is tragic, but there in Russia EVEN the Soviet fallen soldiers still lie in THOUSANDS of unknown mass-graves.
    I agree we Russians shall CARE about all cemeteries , GErmans included , like GErmans care about Russian graves in Berlin.
    I know there a lot of graves of Russians in Eastern Germany , and local authorities still do MUCH to support them in good condition.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Aachen/Aken/Aix-la-Chapelle
    Posts
    2,966

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    I know there a lot of graves of Russians in Eastern Germany , and local authorities still do MUCH to support them in good condition.
    This I can confirm. We got a Russian military cemetery of deceased POW's in our area as well and it's safe to say that it is in a better condition than many German WW2 cemeteries.
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    93

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    I think we can all agree that we should take care of each others war graves, and I know for sure that a lot of Danish SS volunteers found their final rest in a muddy fox hole in Demjansk,(and are probably still there).

    4000 of them have a memorial in Mindelunden in Copenhagen, but there have been several attempts to destroy it, even blow it up. So I think the war graves of the fallen SS men posses some problems in most societies, appart from Latvia off course.

    Thousands of German civilians who flew from the red Army also found their rest in Copenhagen,(after Danish doctors denied them any medical treatment, caused by an execution of a Danish doctor). But at least our government still take care of the German graves.

    http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billede...indelund-3.jpg
    Last edited by freyir_33; 03-09-2009 at 04:30 PM.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,763

    Default Re: German war dead no one wants to remember

    Well this would seem a good point to put in a tale.


    A very close friend of mine from the army writes, originally for his own pleasure but now for that of his mates too.
    Here follows a true story that he first wrote some years back but which is presently in the process of being published.
    He has given me his permission for you blokes get a foretaste of things to come.
    (I've had to cut it into a couple of parts.)


    I Remember.

    By Richard T. Manners.



    It was at Staff Parade that I remember seeing Walter for the first time. That was during the late 1960’s, when I was very young squaddie, and just posted to my Regiment in Germany; a long time ago, but I remember Walter quite clearly.

    Staff Parade took place at 2200 hours, every evening. It was one of those curious military institutions that combine regimental ritual and regimental retribution in equal measure.
    Retribution consisted of the inspection of the delinquent, those who may have transgressed military punctilio in some way. This part of the proceedings was known as ‘Show Parade’ and here an offender might learn the error of his ways without incurring a mark on his record sheet. Items such as, ‘Show Parade, boots insufficiently cleaned’, because, technically, we didn’t ‘bull’ boots anymore, they were just ‘cleaned to a high standard,’ or, ‘Your mess tins are feckin’ mingin’ - Show Parade!’
    One lad turned up with his FV432, gleaming and kitted up to CES, only to find out that it had been a wind-up.

    The ritual part of Staff Parade was the solemn lowering of the Union Flag to the tune of ‘Sunset’, played by the duty bugler.
    In those days everyone, and I do mean everyone, stopped and stood to attention, no matter what they were doing,
    ‘Stand still, you c--t!’ was sometimes heard, but rarely.

    There was another feature of Staff Parade that did not belong to us but was quite unique and oddly poignant. Every night, just outside the gates, stood an old man, scruffy and unshaven, dressed in a dirty old greatcoat.
    When I say ‘an old man’, it was difficult to make a guess at his age. At first you might think that he wore his age in the lines on his face and in the slope of his shoulders which seemed bowed and frail with years. But then, if you looked into his eyes, you saw a deep well of sadness that might have lasted for all eternity.
    Truly, I suppose he was about sixty, but then anyone over forty was an old man to a youngster like me.

    We came to know him as ‘Walter’. Whether that was his real name or not, I don’t know, but he was there every night, without fail, come rain or snow.
    As the Battalion Orderly Sergeant gave the order, ‘Duty bugler, sound off!’, old Walter would draw himself up, standing erect, and as the bugle call began, he would salute. When the parade dismissed he turned about and marched off down the road.

    If you saw Walter at any other time and attempted to greet him, you got a tirade of abuse; at times like those I was thankful my German was so poor, Tourette’s syndrome wasn’t in it! The locals shunned the old man. They tapped their heads and said he was mad,
    The war, you understand. He is kukerne !

    The strange thing was, we didn’t mind Walter being there to pay his respects; it seemed right, he belonged, somehow; he was almost one of us.


    One night, after Staff Parade, there was a commotion just down the road. A loud squeal of brakes and voices raised; a woman screeching and the sound of running feet. I was the sentry on the gate and I saw one of the lads come panting through the gate,
    It’s old Walter ! He’s been run down,’ he gasped and ran into the Guard Room, calling for the Guard Commander to phone for an ambulance.

    The Drum Major, known to one and all as ‘Piggy’, had been present on Staff Parade, to supervise the bugle debut of a new member of the Corps of Drums. Piggy came hurtling out of the Guard Room, closely followed by the BOS. I knew that Piggy had a soft spot for old Walter and he was one of the voices in favour of allowing the old man to attend, albeit at a distance,
    He pays his respects and that’s all that counts,’ Piggy used to say and I like to think that most people agreed with him.
    Sadly, that was the end of Walter; the car was going too fast and Walter hadn’t seen it coming, probably still wrapped up in whatever strange world of memory he inhabited.

    I saw Piggy come back in through the gate. He stopped, looking at something in his hand and I thought that I could see tears on his cheeks.
    He saw me staring and turned, glaring at me,
    Smarten yourself up, boy ! You look like a bag o’ shit ! Show parade tomorrow; those boots need more attention !’ and he stamped off, thrusting whatever it was into his pocket.

    Somehow Staff Parade seemed a bit sadder, even more poignant, without Walter standing outside the gate, hunched up, tensely waiting for his moment to take part. We missed him.

    A couple of days after the incident Piggy posted a notice on each Company notice board. It said that old Walter’s funeral would take place at the local cemetery on the next Wednesday afternoon.
    The CO had given his permission that anyone who wished to attend should give Piggy their names after Staff Parade that evening.
    It was a bit of a shock to see just how many turned up. Everyone there seemed to have some sort of story to tell about Walter; usually a tale of being roundly abused by him but oddly no one seemed to have been offended by the old man, it was almost like achieving some sort of award.

    There were all kinds of rumours about him; how he’d fought on the Eastern Front, how he’d been taken prisoner by the Russians, how he’d escaped and walked home, avoiding recapture. And how he’d come home to find his family wiped out. Rumour had it that that was when Walter went mad.



    cont'd.






    Copyright Richard T. Manners.
    "Don't call me stupid !" - Otto 'Galtieri' West.
    __________________
    Stupidity should be a crime. Ignorance should be punished.
    Refusal to accept corroborated facts should result in a chainsaw enema.

    a luta continua, em adiante a vitória
    __________________

Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •