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Thread: What's wrong with this picture?

  1. #1
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    Default What's wrong with this picture?

    Private William Jackson, 17th Battalion (New South Wales). Jackson lost his right arm in the action on 25–26 June 1916 for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross (which he is wearing and has nothing to do with the questions arising about this picture, nor does the background).


  2. #2
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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Private William Jackson, 17th Battalion (New South Wales). Jackson lost his right arm in the action on 25–26 June 1916 for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross (which he is wearing and has nothing to do with the questions arising about this picture, nor does the background).

    The person in the background is of a later era.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    if he is a one arm person,. how he handle horse string and in the same time whipping the steed?

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    The person in the background is of a later era.
    No.

    It's to do with his uniform.

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    if he is a one arm person,. how he handle horse string and in the same time whipping the steed?
    No, but you're sort of on the right track.

    It's to do with horses, but not riding them.

    (Anyway, a lot of horsemen of that era could control a horse with their knees and needed only one hand for the reins. They'd use spurs rather than the crop he's holding.)
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 06-04-2008 at 08:12 PM. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yurek View Post
    He looks photoshopped into the picture
    No, that's just a consequence of using a large aperture on the camera. It drops the background out of focus.

    It's all to do with the uniform.

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    17th batallion didnt have cavalry unit? and he was wearing cavalry uniform?

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    17th batallion didnt have cavalry unit? and he was wearing cavalry uniform?
    Near enough.

    He seems to be wearing the top half of an infantry uniform and the bottom half of a light horse uniform.

    17th Bn was infantry. Unlike the light horse soldiers, they didn't have reinforced panels on the inside leg of their breeches and wore puttees rather than leather leggings, and they didn't need riding crops nor were they part of their issue.

    Light horse were issued with leather belts, where Jackson is weaing the cloth infantry version.

    I was wondering whether Jackson was later promoted and took to carrying a crop as part of his officer's uniform, but then he'd be more likely to be wearing a peaked cap and not a slouch hat.

    Light horse had a large feather in their slouch hat, but Jackson doesn't. http://www.rfd.org.au/site/light_horse_reenact.asp

    Maybe it was another case of a soldier 'mixing and matching' uniforms to get what he felt suited him best, which happens in the field in all armies.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    I'm tempted to start a quiz on what's wrong with the picture in the link in my last post, but even most Australians couldn't work it out so I won't.

    The flag bearer is holding the wrong Australian flag. It's the current flag, the blue ensign. http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/au.html

    In WWI (and WWII, even despite occasional photographic deceit http://www.ausflag.com.au/debate/redensign/index.html) it was almost always the red ensign, which is now our merchant navy's flag.
    http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-...red_ensign.htm

    Which is why it pisses me off when monarchists, conservatives, nationalists and other historically ignorant fools rely on 'history' to support their assertions that our flag is sacrosanct because our service people died for our flag, meaning the blue ensign, in two world wars, when they didn't fight under that flag.

    Although it was proclaimed as the national flag in 1901, the blue ensign didn't receive formal royal assent until 1954 and didn't come into common government use until then. Almost everything from from WWI, including some documents I have, carry the red ensign, often crossed with the Union Jack as in some of the pictures in the last link in this post.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Jackson was never commissioned so that cannot be an officer's crop. The photo was taken 13 July 1917, a week after he returned to Australia, so it will probably be a park in Sydney.

    It's probable that he rode in a parade and was given the appropriate trousers, as he seemed to know his way around horses because he became a dealer for a short while after the war.
    _______________________________________________

    Squadron Leader Mahinder Singh Pujji DFC - 43 & 258 Squadron RAF & 6 Squadron RIAF. Hurricanes & Spitfires over France, Tomahawks in North Africa, Hurricanes over Burma.

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrit View Post
    Jackson was never commissioned so that cannot be an officer's crop. The photo was taken 13 July 1917, a week after he returned to Australia, so it will probably be a park in Sydney.

    It's probable that he rode in a parade and was given the appropriate trousers, as he seemed to know his way around horses because he became a dealer for a short while after the war.
    Thanks for that.

    I tried tracking down the Australian War Memorial picture through its records but couldn't find any info on it.

    Do you have any more information?

    P.S. Where did you find that info?
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 06-06-2008 at 08:31 AM. Reason: P.S.

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Detailed biog:

    http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/jacksonvc.htm

    The issue of his DCM makes for interesting reading, as does the fact that he is often mentioned as having won the MM when he didn't.

    And AWM picture:

    http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cas_disp_...s_level=Public

    The AWM sometimes times-out searches so if that doesn't work then go to :

    http://cas.awm.gov.au/TST2/cas_disp_...s_level=Public

    and search for P01992.001
    _______________________________________________

    Squadron Leader Mahinder Singh Pujji DFC - 43 & 258 Squadron RAF & 6 Squadron RIAF. Hurricanes & Spitfires over France, Tomahawks in North Africa, Hurricanes over Burma.

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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrit View Post
    Amrit

    Thanks for that great source.

    I worked in the Hay area forty plus years ago and there wasn't a park like the one in the picture anywhere near it so, given the dates and the expansive park, the picture was most likely taken in Sydney.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrit View Post
    The issue of his DCM makes for interesting reading, as does the fact that he is often mentioned as having won the MM when he didn't.
    Yes, I've seen several brief references to a dispute about returning the DCM, but the source you have given is by far the most detailed explanation I have seen. Thanks again.

    And AWM picture ... and search for P01992.001
    I searched that photo ID on the AWM site several ways and always got a negative result.


    Thanks again for fleshing out all that info on Jackson.

    Even if we still don't know for sure why he was wearing light horse gear. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a WWI version of what we now call spin, perhaps built on top of the parade explanation you offered. And maybe related to recruiting issues.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Near enough.

    He seems to be wearing the top half of an infantry uniform and the bottom half of a light horse uniform.

    17th Bn was infantry. Unlike the light horse soldiers, they didn't have reinforced panels on the inside leg of their breeches and wore puttees rather than leather leggings, and they didn't need riding crops nor were they part of their issue.

    Light horse were issued with leather belts, where Jackson is weaing the cloth infantry version.

    I was wondering whether Jackson was later promoted and took to carrying a crop as part of his officer's uniform, but then he'd be more likely to be wearing a peaked cap and not a slouch hat.

    Light horse had a large feather in their slouch hat, but Jackson doesn't. http://www.rfd.org.au/site/light_horse_reenact.asp

    Maybe it was another case of a soldier 'mixing and matching' uniforms to get what he felt suited him best, which happens in the field in all armies.
    There does appear to be the faint trace of a captains insignia on his epalettes.

    I was speaking with an Aussie Lt Col., yesterday, he was in uniform and wore a slouch hat. He also sported the Rising Sun badge in his hat and we got into a conversation on the subject of the badge.

    I told him of you and he asked me to pass on his regards.

    No. He didn't know what was wrong with the picture either .......(Nah....just kidding on that one! )

    I would suggest that the person in the picture is not the real Jackson. Hence the discrepencies in uniform and background. The picture is probably taken in much more recent times and the model was given whatever pieces of uniform which could be mustered.....it isn't you is it??? Right arm fell off from over use?

    If it is you, perhaps it should be transferred to the forum faces?
    Last edited by 32Bravo; 06-06-2008 at 02:26 PM.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


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    Default Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    There does appear to be the faint trace of a captains insignia on his epalettes.
    I wondered about that too. I thought it might be a lieutenant's two pips as I could make out only two spots, but the proximity of the innermost one to the button near the collar suggests there might be three. Or maybe it's just a trick of the light.

    My eyes are about as buggered as my right arm, but from age rather than overuse.

    I'm not sure whether infantry officers wore the slouch in WWI. I think they wear the usual British pattern officer's peaked cap in the pictures I've seen, but maybe they wore slouches. It's not something I've ever paid attention to before now.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    I was speaking with an Aussie Lt Col., yesterday, he was in uniform and wore a slouch hat. He also sported the Rising Sun badge in his hat and we got into a conversation on the subject of the badge.

    I told him of you and he asked me to pass on his regards.
    Please return my compliments if you see him again.

    I'm flattered. With the exception of a major who got very shitty when I wouldn't let him enter a closed off firing area (He instructed his driver to drive the Land Rover over me, at which point I thought it would have been wise for the range officer to have issued me with live ammunition to carry out his orders to exclude everyone, but the driver was a softie, although I feared he was going to firm up when the major transferred his anger to his driver.), I don't think anybody of field rank or above was ever aware of my existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by 32Bravo View Post
    If it is you, perhaps it should be transferred to the forum faces?
    Nah, I'm much more handsome.

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