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Thread: Natives

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Natives

    Wizard, you make a fine point.

    It is exceptionally difficult to disentangle the motivation between contribution to the Allied cause and nationalist aims on the part of various native groupings in the S.E.A and further south.

    However, it is equally true to say that in some cases, (Papua New Guinea is an example), the natives were to all intents ignored post-war.
    Stark contrast with Malaya, for example, or French IndoChina. In the latter two cases there was conflict based on nationalist aims among the natives, and political hegemony among the Colonial Powers.

    Which is pretty much where your post comes in.
    While to a given degree I agree with you, I don't set aside cases like the Solomons, PNG, or the Gilberts, to name a few.

    Kind and Respectful Regards Wizard my friend, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Natives

    Quote Originally Posted by Uyraell View Post
    ....While to a given degree I agree with you, I don't set aside cases like the Solomons, PNG, or the Gilberts, to name a few.

    Kind and Respectful Regards Wizard my friend, Uyraell.
    It wasn't my intention to set aside the cases involving the Solomons, PNG, and Gilberts natives so much as to plead ignorance of the post-war treatment of these cultures by the Allied authorities.

    I know in the cases of the Solomons and New Guinea natives, recognition, at least in historical sources, of their contributions has been made. I am not well enough versed in the post war history of these regions to pontificate on any further efforts, or lack thereof, to reward them. As for the Gilberts natives, I know they generally were cooperative with the Allies and often volunteered information as to local conditions and Japanese dispositions, but I was not aware of any other contributions on their part to the Allied reconquest of those islands. And again, I have not studied the post-war history of these people to any great extent, and therefore cannot judge whether the post-war treatment of the Gilberts natives was fair or not.

    The point of my posts is that, given the wide disparity of political circumstances involving the indigenous cultures of the Pacific, and the fact that not all native populations were universally helpful to the Allies, it is naive to contend that all native populations deserve recognition and reward simply because some individuals or groups within those populations rendered valuable service to the Allied cause. In the case of some of the more primitive cultures, it is even difficult to determine what reward(s) would be appropriate and truly appreciated.

    I suppose what I'm trying to say is that as far as this topic goes, one size certainly does not fit all, and to do justice to those involved, we need to examine motivation, political circumstances, the objective value of the service rendered, and other germane factors.

    Best regards,
    Wizard

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Natives

    Quote Originally Posted by Wizard View Post
    It wasn't my intention to set aside the cases involving the Solomons, PNG, and Gilberts natives so much as to plead ignorance of the post-war treatment of these cultures by the Allied authorities.

    I know in the cases of the Solomons and New Guinea natives, recognition, at least in historical sources, of their contributions has been made. I am not well enough versed in the post war history of these regions to pontificate on any further efforts, or lack thereof, to reward them. As for the Gilberts natives, I know they generally were cooperative with the Allies and often volunteered information as to local conditions and Japanese dispositions, but I was not aware of any other contributions on their part to the Allied reconquest of those islands. And again, I have not studied the post-war history of these people to any great extent, and therefore cannot judge whether the post-war treatment of the Gilberts natives was fair or not.

    The point of my posts is that, given the wide disparity of political circumstances involving the indigenous cultures of the Pacific, and the fact that not all native populations were universally helpful to the Allies, it is naive to contend that all native populations deserve recognition and reward simply because some individuals or groups within those populations rendered valuable service to the Allied cause. In the case of some of the more primitive cultures, it is even difficult to determine what reward(s) would be appropriate and truly appreciated.

    I suppose what I'm trying to say is that as far as this topic goes, one size certainly does not fit all, and to do justice to those involved, we need to examine motivation, political circumstances, the objective value of the service rendered, and other germane factors.

    Best regards,
    Wizard
    I find myself in agreement with you on this, Wizard.
    I too do not believe in the "one size fits all" conception of the post-war histories and recognition of the various native groupings/ nations.

    That there are discrepancies and differences in each and every case and circumstance I fully agree.
    And it is thus only proper to assess each case on its' merits.


    Kind and Respectful Regards Wizard, Uyraell.
    Last edited by Uyraell; 08-13-2010 at 01:56 AM. Reason: Typo.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Natives

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post


    Gee, this is a great idea a mere 65 years after the poor bastards who did sterling work for Australians actually did the work.

    How about doing something of practical value to recognise the effort and the sacrifice rather than just striking a bloody medal to be given, in almost all cases, to the people at least one or two if not three generations removed from the blokes who actually earned it.
    Rising Sun,

    I feel your frustration about good men being overlooked for the thankless work they have done.

    Unfortunately most people think of Steven Segal single handedly taking on a large Army... when you talk about Special Force Operators... in real life the best Operators don't get involved in the fighting themselves... they mobilise others to to their work and so the chain of events start...

    In the Boer War Africans were armed by the British to fight against the Boers, despite this the British repaid them by having more than 20000 Africans die in concentration camps.

    In one of the worst expamples I have seen the South African Appartheid Government left 31 Batalion behind after the bush war in Angola, in my view this was simply criminal. Using the guys when they were needed but just discarding them when those soldiers needed protection made me sick.

    Many years later they were repatriated to South Africa though. And left to fend for themselves while living in old army tents which were unsuitable for habitation. These guys were given no new skills, education or financial support.

    Medals and rewards for those men did not materialise, regardless of what one thinks of the Appartheid government, these footsoldiers only did what they did to protect their own people from others who were using violence against civilians to mobilise people.

    What happened wasn't fair.

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Natives

    on the previous post mentioned,. Japanese and allied were hand in hand to strip the native irregular unit.
    this happened back then in Surabaya-Indonesia shortly after the war.
    When come this kind of topic, always came up sad yet ironic situation for Locals back then,
    All the invaders came and recruits the locals, and the native to fight on the interest of the invaders, if necesasry
    against their own relatives - My father was recruited as Japanese Navy para-military unit and to kill - not in direct manner - his uncle who was joined KNIL.
    And later part, after the War, the Dutch intended to regain what their losses on the islands, again, using native into KNIL and to fight Indonesian Guerillas.

    only a year ago, after 65 years, Dutch Government formally admitted the independent of Indonesia.

    Where is the Justice for the Natives?

  6. #21
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    Switzerland
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    5

    Default Re: Natives

    Yes, most of those natives of countries are the real heroes in conflict, although there were exceptions who were more likely to perish. After all, the loyal ones were sovereign members of their country and proud of it

  7. #22
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    midwest
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    Default Re: Natives

    The SF training I had in the 60s was oriented to unconventional warfare.

    It involved the concept of teams infiltrating denied areas by various means and recruiting, training, and leading indigenous irregulars against foreign invaders or unfriendly regimes.

    Quite a lot of that went on in WW2. From primitive savages to civilised guerillas or partisans.
    Much of it is lost to history by its very nature.

    People laugh at the "Green Berets" but the esprit of the troops, and the "A" Camp segment are very true to life.
    Outsiders were not privy to any of this and it seems funny to them.
    Also, it was just a movie and there is a lot of silly stuff.
    The concept remains accurate. The spirit, professionalism and dedication of the SF portrayed is more accurate than people know.
    My A team consisted of WW2 and Korea combat vets as well as several tour VN vets and 1st timers like myself.

    I think a good movie is "Never So Few" also "Go Tell The Spartans."
    Living out amongst a bunch of primitives is hard, dirty, and not very glamorous.
    It is always a significant memory, though.
    Makes subsequent life and people pretty mundane at times.

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