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Thread: The islam menace.

  1. #436
    Join Date
    Mar 2007

    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I think there were arguments made at the Wannsee Conference (the conference in which the final solution was planned in earnest) regarding the fact that the Holocaust was clearly a violation of German law. This argument was made by the very lawyer that drew up the Nuremberg Laws regarding the treatment of the Jews and that under German law, their murder was still obviously illegal (technically), and brought up a whole host of sticky questions regarding death certificates, inheritance, marriage laws (regarding gentile spouses), etc. I believe the Nazi regime also broke numerous international laws regarding their wars of aggression to which the German gov't had previously been signatories too. Not only did Germany violate international law during WWII, they violated their own military justice system and simply ignored their own written laws to become a lawless state. Many of the crimes they were prosecuted under did in fact exist, although "crimes against humanity" was moralistically grandiose, it was meant to have a deterrent effect for future generations.
    I agree with all you said there, but instead of prosecuting the Nazis for offences under German law or established international law a special set of laws was created for prosecuting only Axis offenders.

    The deterrent effect for future generations might have been no more than to learn the lesson that they had better not lose a war and be subjected to victor's justice (which as you say is a whole other issue, that we should leave alone here).

    Article 6.

    The Tribunal established by the Agreement referred to in Article 1 hereof for the trial and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis countries shall have the power to try and punish persons who, acting in the interests of the European Axis countries, whether as individuals or as members of organizations, committed any of the following crimes.


    (b) WAR CRIMES: namely, violations of the laws or customs of war. Such violations shall include, but not be limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory, murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity .....
    If the Allies were subject to the same laws their bombing campaigns in Europe might have fallen within:

    wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity .....
    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    One could also argue that the scale of inhumanity that took place in the Second World War defied all precedent, and thus needed a specific address to such questions as genocide.
    Quite possibly.

    But why did the Allies need to bring the Nazis to account for crimes against humanity, being the extermination of the Jews, when the Allies knew full well what was going on during the war and had the ability but not the inclination to do anything to stop it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    I would also mention that the Nuremberg Trials as a method of determining culpability and command responsibility was in fact an alternative to the preferred Stalin method of packing up large segments of German society and either summarily executing them or sending them east. I believe that FDR thought Stalin was joking when he mentioned something along these lines at Yalta whereas Churchill was horrified...

    But the Nuremberg Trials were still not equivalent to anything the Western nations then had in their legal systems, either in the crimes prosecuted or the processes used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    That would be a matter of subjective opinion. The problem I have is that the Nazi party courts were completely illegal monstrosities that had no bearing on the written code of the German criminal justice system and its precedents...
    I think that might reflect a general perception but perhaps not an accurate view of how the court system worked overall.

    I'm not sure that the show trials represented how the courts worked on a day to day basis.

    I think I posted something ages ago about the agony of decision a German judge experienced under the Nazis, which reflected the fact that not all German courts were mere puppets of the Nazis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    IIRC- Wasn't Nuremberg conducted under the premise that the Nazi regime essentially fostered a "lawless state" that completely ignored all of its own criminal codes and therefore could not be trusted to meet out justice to its own war criminals?
    But this is the constant problem in international law: recognition of states and governments which come into existence and to power by irregular means.

    As indeed did the USA after its War of Independence.

    How many 'lawless' states have the major powers recognised since WWII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    The Nazi court trials had little in common with what one would call justice. Did the Jews ever get a trial? Did the (up to) 4.5 million Soviet POWs ever get a trial? The only people who got a trial were mainly the German opponents of the Nazi regime--such as the Rose Group and the July 17th coup plotters. But I think we can hardly compare a very selective series of trials of those in command responsibility to the paranoid, sadistic witch hunts that were the highlight of Nazi 'justice.' Foreign opponents of the regime were lucky to get a merciful guillotine after torture, and were clearly executed extra-judicially as they weren't even given benefit of a mock, show trial or kangaroo court...
    All true.

    But the Nuremberg trials also lacked some of the principal features of the justice systems of the Western powers which conducted them, notably by allowing retrospectivity and selectivity of application.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    The US legal opinions allowing torture have been found to be irresponsibly dubious at best, and the US Attorney General here caused quite a stir when he mention prosecuting CIA and military officers for conducting such activities. I agree such efforts have been a bit piss-weak, and the real people that should be thrown in jail are the Bush lawyers who essentially ignored their laws out of convenience or who allowed illegal programs such as the "Copper Green" to result in the abortion that took place at Abu Ghraib (which was repeated in dozens of detention facilities after the Iraq War BTW, with full knowledge of the Sunnis--even without the ****ing photos that everyone pissed themselves over the release of) which did nothing but inflame the Sunni insurgency and cause MORE terrorism and resistance to the occupation. Yet, if you're going to indict the extremes of the previous administration, we also must acknowledge that the US military and civil authorities have tried and convicted their members (as well as civilian mercenaries working for security contractors such as Blackwater) of crimes at Haditha and other places--for murder, rape, summary executions of Iraqi insurgent suspects and regarding other illegal conduct...
    Again, I agree fully.

    And the failure to indict the ****s who ran that system from the top, while entirely predictable and understandable for reasons of political pragmatism, merely reinforces my general point that there is no such thing as an essential system of law which applies across the board even in Western countries and that whatever laws apply can always be bent to achieve whatever political or other objectives are desired by those who have the power to make the laws.
    A rational army would run away.

  2. #437
    Join Date
    Sep 2005

    Default Re: The islam menace.

    Somali charged with murder attempt on Muhammad cartoonist

    Danish police shot and wounded man who broke into Kurt Westergaard's home wielding axe and knife
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    Kurt Westergaard sheltered in a safe room with his grandchild as the attacker raged outside. Photograph: Preben Hupfeld/EPA

    A Somali man has been charged with trying to murder a Danish artist whose cartoons of the prophet Muhammad sparked a storm of protest and violence across the Muslim world.

    Danish police shot and wounded the 28-year-old man after he broke into Kurt Westergaard's home in Aarhus last night armed with an axe and a knife. The suspect is said to have ties to al-Qaida.

    The 75-year-old artist had retreated to a safe room with his five-year-old granddaughter. When police arrived they tried to arrest the intruder and then shot him in the hand and knee when he threatened an officer with the axe, said Preben Nielsen of the Aarhus police.

    Chief Superintendent Ole Madsen in Aarhus said the man was charged with two counts of attempted murder – one on Westergaard and one on a police officer – at a court hearing today in Aarhus, Denmark's second-largest city.

    "He will be in custody for four weeks and in isolation for two," Madsen said.

    The suspect's name was not being released, in line with Danish privacy rules, Nielsen said. His wounds were serious but not life-threatening.

    Westergaard was "quite shocked" by the attack but not injured, Nielsen said.

    An umbrella organisation for moderate Muslims in Denmark has condemned the attack. "The Danish Muslim Union strongly distances itself from the attack and any kind of extremism that leads to such acts," it said in a statement.

    In 2005 the Jyllands-Posten newspaper published a caricature by Westergaard depicting Muhammad wearing a turban shaped like a bomb with a fuse. Islamic tradition says no image of the prophet should be made or shown. The Danish embassy in Damascus was burned down in 2006, others were attacked and death threats forced Westergaard into hiding.

    The Somali had won an asylum case and received a residency permit, said Jakob Scharf, the head of PET, Denmark's intelligence service. Scharf called the attack "terror related".

    "The arrested man has, according to PET's information, close relations to the Somali terrorist group al-Shabab and al-Qaida leaders in eastern Africa," Scharf said. "[The attack] again confirms the terror threat that is directed at Denmark and against the cartoonist Kurt Westergaard in particular."

    Scharf said the man was suspected of involvement in terror-related activities in east Africa and had been under PET's surveillance but not in connection with Westergaard.

    Westergaard told his employer, the Jyllands-Posten newspaper, that the assailant shouted "Revenge!" and "Blood!" as he tried to enter the bathroom where Westergaard and the child had barricaded themselves.

    "He threatened to kill me. I ran out to the bathroom where our security room is. I was worried for my grandchild. I was afraid.

    "I knew that I could not match him. So I alerted the police. It was scary. It was really close. But we did it. It was good ... my grandchild did fine."

    Westergaard was moved to a safe place last night but was unable to say what the attempted attack would mean for his future. "It is too early to say. I must speak with PET and then we will see," he said.

    In October terror charges were brought against two Chicago men who planned to kill Westergaard and his newspaper's former cultural editor.

    In 2008 Danish police arrested two Tunisian men suspected of plotting to kill Westergaard. Neither suspect was prosecuted. One was deported and the other was released on Monday after an immigration board rejected PET's efforts to expel him from Denmark.


    A very good example of Islam attacking Europes backyard, or should I say frontyard ?

  3. #438
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Deepest Darkest NZ

    Default Re: The islam menace.

    More an example of a religious fanatic attacking someone who threatens their world-view.
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