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Thread: SS deserter on The Eastern Front

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    Default SS deserter on The Eastern Front

    Sometimes back, i read a book about Waffen SS, written by Keith Simpson,. i remember reading part of earlier stage of Barbarossa,.. stating of 3rd SS Totenkopf casualties during Battle of Lake Ilmen,. one of statement mentioned that there were few desertion from 3rd SS Totenkopf during that battle.

    Was it really happening, or it was just an propaganda issued by Russian.
    If it was infact happened, is there any news about their well being?, as it is understood, Red Army spare no mercy for Waffen SS.

    Thank you
    "My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack. If it is a vessel equal to yours, attack. And if it is stronger than yours, also attack."

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Well i personaly dont think it happend simply because the waffen ss was so disciplined they would have fought to the death and would have not fled becuse my gramps was in the 29th during ww2 and he told me stories about ther encounters with the ss and he said qoute "the son of bitches wouldn't run if the devil himself was after em"




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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    Was it really happening, or it was just an propaganda issued by Russian.
    If it was infact happened, is there any news about their well being?, as it is understood, Red Army spare no mercy for Waffen SS.

    Thank you
    This is tupical mistake that soviets killed all SS/Waffen SS soldiers.
    Sure many of them were executed.
    But just look at Baltic veterans of Waffen SS- today many of them ( who succesfully survived the GULAG, to the contrast of about 2.5 soviet POWs in Germany) walks in parades here.
    Besides there was a great differnce between the German SS and Waffen SS of foreign "voluntaries".

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    This is tupical mistake that soviets killed all SS/Waffen SS soldiers.
    Sure many of them were executed.
    But just look at Baltic veterans of Waffen SS- today many of them ( who succesfully survived the GULAG, to the contrast of about 2.5 soviet POWs in Germany) walks in parades here.
    Besides there was a great differnce between the German SS and Waffen SS of foreign "voluntaries".
    Yet again, biased to the limit.
    Right here we see how Germans seemingly killed the POWs and Soviets were kind hosts.
    In real life Soviets were savages in their treatment of POWs, as many Germans were held as slave labour years and years after the end of WW2.

    Waffen SS and forgein vouloonteer SS were very different from the original fanatical, yet not combat worthy force which the SS was in the early years. In the beginning the SS was `pure´ and `elite´ by means of racial appearance and loyalty. As the war progressed, it came apparent that SS needed to be more like a combat unit.
    And though there were forces troops, there were also vouloonteer forgeiners, from all over Europe. Soviets like to say these were all nazis, but many fought in order to kill Reds, were against communism.
    They fought bitterly because it was known how Soviets treated these troops should they get caught.

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by Fennica View Post
    In real life Soviets were savages in their treatment of POWs, as many Germans were held as slave labour years and years after the end of WW2.
    How is exactly long "years and years"?

    Waffen SS and forgein vouloonteer SS were very different from the original fanatical, yet not combat worthy force which the SS was in the early years. In the beginning the SS was `pure´ and `elite´ by means of racial appearance and loyalty. As the war progressed, it came apparent that SS needed to be more like a combat unit.
    Lake Ilmen... is not it end of 1941 - beggining 1942? It is not the end of the war at all.

    And though there were forces troops, there were also vouloonteer forgeiners, from all over Europe. Soviets like to say these were all nazis, but many fought in order to kill Reds, were against communism.
    They fought bitterly because it was known how Soviets treated these troops should they get caught.
    They were no all Nazis, but most of them were. They were skilled, disciplinned and ideologicaly robust - the most dangerous enemy.

    For your info not only Soviets had hard attitude towards SS. On the western front the German tank crews were affraid to surrender in their black uniform as they resembled SS uniforms. Why were they affraid?
    Last edited by Egorka; 03-03-2008 at 07:45 AM.

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by Fennica View Post
    Yet again, biased to the limit.
    Right here we see how Germans seemingly killed the POWs and Soviets were kind hosts.
    In real life Soviets were savages in their treatment of POWs, as many Germans were held as slave labour years and years after the end of WW2.
    Oh my god , now you are talking with me
    What a surprise.Sure you know who was a real savage to the POWs and civils on the occuped lands
    We saw the photos in other thread.
    Waffen SS and forgein vouloonteer SS were very different from the original fanatical, yet not combat worthy force which the SS was in the early years. In the beginning the SS was `pure´ and `elite´ by means of racial appearance and loyalty. As the war progressed, it came apparent that SS needed to be more like a combat unit.
    And though there were forces troops, there were also vouloonteer forgeiners, from all over Europe. Soviets like to say these were all nazis, but many fought in order to kill Reds, were against communism.
    They fought bitterly because it was known how Soviets treated these troops should they get caught.
    Now your revisionism has been showed clearly.
    Sure not all of them were criminals, but it was proved that Waffen SS were used agains civils( in so called "anti-partisan" operations) where they killed even the children ( like the sadly known Bach-Zelevskij who "pacificated" the Warsaw uprising with awful cruelty).
    The Waffen SS/SS has been called as criminal organisation after the war ( the Nurenberg trial) for its wide partisipation in Ethnical mass murders.
    Being the fanatically devoted for Nazy ideas - the Waffen SS was universal instrument of killing.
    I still know nothing about crimes of Finnish Battalion of Waffen SS in Caucaus, but just give me a bit more time

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    How is exactly long "years and years"?
    German POWs in Allied Hands

    Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers were captured during the war. Their fate depended on whether the Red Army or the British or Americans took their armistice. Prisoners of the Western Allies had a much better chance of survival*.

    Few Germans were taken in combat from 1939 to 1941. The German victories ensured that prisoners taken in combat in Poland, Norway, France and the Low Countries were released when the campaign ended in allied capitulation.

    The combat in the Soviet Union, due to its apocalyptic nature, left both sides trying to prevent capture. Soviet and German units cut off from relief would fight to the death. Friedrich von Paulus’ Sixth Army took 85% casualties before surrendering at Stalingrad. Capture was so feared many choose death.

    The conditions German POWs endured on the Eastern Front are beyond description. Shipped to separate camps in Siberia and elsewhere in the western Soviet Union, the German POWs were subjected to aggressive reeducation in communist ideology, as well as frequent beatings, torture, and execution. Food was always scarce.

    The result was a horrific rate of death among German POWs. Out of the 90,000 Germans who marched into Soviet captivity at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned from Russia. Most German POWs were held for <b>ten years after the war.</B>

    Germans in North America and sometimes Britain fared much better. Food was plentiful, and they ate better then their families in Europe did. Camps for German POWs were set up all over England and the United States. German POWs had medical care, shelter, and were paid wages for their labor, although very low ones. They worked on farms and work gangs. Some died in captivity, either due to wounds in combat or trying to escape. In one incident, zealous Nazi U-boat crewmembers killed a POW that had collaborated with the Allies. Thousands of German POWs attempted escape, with one pair even trying to cross over the Arctic to get from Canada to Germany. Most were recaptured; only one successful escape is recorded from North America.

    Violence in POW camps was generally down. Loyal Nazis celebrated national holidays at the same time Hitler was in Berlin. War news shocked them as the Allies and the Red Army advanced into Germany.

    The Western Allies were overwhelmed by the number of surrendering Germans in late 1944 and early 1945. The POW system was completely overloaded, with too few guards and too little shelter and food. Many guards were brutal to the German POWs, often in retaliation for the German occupation of their home country.*

    The end of the war was distressing, but most POWs feared for their loved ones. Some Nazis committed suicide, either before the end of the war or on the day of the armistice.

    When the war ended, the German POWs were shipped home — unless they were held by the Red Army. Germans were still being released from Soviet POW camps in 1955. Some probably were never released and spent their lives in captivity.

    German POWs often remained defiant Nazis in captivity, but others were grateful for a hot meal and a warm place to sleep after the horrors of modern warfare. They were often absued for the Nazis' actions in combat and occupation. If they were lucky enough to make it to a POW Camp in North America, they could expect decent food and shelter and sometimes work release. These men only had to fear the hard line Nazis that would execute those they held as Allied collaborators.

    * In the book "Other losses" (which I read) that was written after consulting the records of german POWs held by americans, british and french army, it is estimated that about 2 millions germans died from malnourishment and sickness. This was partly due to the food shortage : priority was with liberated civilians from everywhere in Europe. But Also, the german troops who surendered after the armistice were classified as "disarmed enemy force" instead of POW.
    Kind of like now with the "illegal enemy combatants" held now in Guantanamo, which are "kind of" out of the Geneva convention. (or so they wish to make us believe).

    Book Description From Amazon

    After World War II, an estimated ten million Germans, both soldiers and citizens, were incarcerated in Allied prison camps. Due to negligence, varying from exposure to starvation, from gunfire to physical abuse, over 1.5 million of these prisoners lost their lives. Little was known of this topic before the initial release of Other Losses in 1989. Based on the testimony of both French and American sources, Other Losses relayed a shocking account of how both the French and American armies had willingly caused the deaths of some 800,000 men, women and children. Although academics challenged author James Bacque with criticism of exaggeration they were unable to provide an explanation for the extensive casualties. Several years following the original release of Other Losses, the KGBs prisoners of war archives were disclosed. Bacques quest for the truth continued as he probed these files and acquired additional statistical evidence from Soviet sources. This additional information contributes to and expands on his original findings. This updated edition presents all the relevant new material concerning the mass deaths of prisoners and the suppression of the evidence by the governments of Germany, the U.S., France and the Soviet Union. A hornets nest.... tells for the first time how.... German soldiers were left to die in American and French camps. John Gellner The Globe Mail Stunning. Time Magazine A great and grim masterpiece of investigative journalism, unmasking one of the most successful coverups in modern history. Independant on Sunday

    So, Chevan, Egorka, please do try to use some research a bit before posting some biased answer... I can only speak for myself, but I'm getting sick of your cold-war mentality. This forum is not about who's country was better/suffered the most/etc, it's about the historic facts.
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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    Sometimes back, i read a book about Waffen SS, written by Keith Simpson,. i remember reading part of earlier stage of Barbarossa,.. stating of 3rd SS Totenkopf casualties during Battle of Lake Ilmen,. one of statement mentioned that there were few desertion from 3rd SS Totenkopf during that battle.
    I too have vague recollection of reading, sometime, somewhere, that Waffen SS had couple of desertions in the early stage of the war. But, considering that some Waffen SS formations lost over 90% (one unit lost 98% of strenght, it's mentioned couple of times in different eastern front books, cannot recall the name of the commander right now) of their strenght during winter of 1941-1942, so it's no wonder if one or two soldiers deserted, at least momentarily.

    Problems also is that if unit is beaten and momentarily scatters, it's difficult to say if soldiers are simply lost day or two before founding their way back to unit, or if they have deserted, or if they are marked as deserters for a while.

    Of course, in 1945 desertions increased, and some foreign WSS units formed in the last years of the war were pretty low quality to begin with.


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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    German POWs in Allied Hands

    Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers were captured during the war. Their fate depended on whether the Red Army or the British or Americans took their armistice. Prisoners of the Western Allies had a much better chance of survival*.
    Sure thay had better chance coz they naver commited henocide on the BRitish or American land, right.
    So, Chevan, Egorka, please do try to use some research a bit before posting some biased answer... I can only speak for myself, but I'm getting sick of your cold-war mentality. This forum is not about who's country was better/suffered the most/etc, it's about the historic facts.
    Sorry, but You windrider make a mistake if think that me and Egorka did n't use some research about this topic before.
    We had a whole debates threads here few time ago.
    And i/m getting sick too about tend of some mebers to exploit as a hero the Waffen SS/ SS and other bas..rds of WW2.
    And you right - this is matter of cold war mentality. When the Japanes are bad coz they killed the Americans , but GErmans are good coz they fought agains russians
    Nice menthaly.
    And about facts...
    Let me remind you a bit about Germans behaviour here.
    They killed about 10 millions of slavs , not anglo-saxons. So might you feel free to talk about " historical facts". But the simple fact that they commited genocide neither in London or New York, nor even in your happy Montreal, but in my Nothern Caucaus where my ancestors lived , in Kiev, in Warsaw and in many other Eastern cities make me clear about relation to the race superior ideas and the PEOPLES who really did realized it in practice.
    Just make the little brain exercize- just imagine that Japanes accidentally landed in the Canada for short time and begin the Rape of Montreal ( kinda Rape of Nankin) and killed your relatives by most brutally way.
    I would like to see how you will defend the "poor japanise POWs" after the war and tell us about Cold war menthaly
    Sorry again.
    Personally i feel sorry for the civils of that amfull war. Even the GErmans civils deserved better destiny. But the people who actually fight for Nazy mashine ( whatever they spread today to justify themself)- this is whole other topic.

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    I don't know where you see any glorification of the Nazi in what I wrote.
    Why don't you start a thread on russian civilian casualties instead of always coming back to it everywhere?

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    The conditions German POWs endured on the Eastern Front are beyond description. Shipped to separate camps in Siberia and elsewhere in the western Soviet Union, the German POWs were subjected to aggressive reeducation in communist ideology, as well as frequent beatings, torture, and execution. Food was always scarce.
    How many memoirs of the German exPOWs in USSR have You read?

    The result was a horrific rate of death among German POWs. Out of the 90,000 Germans who marched into Soviet captivity at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned from Russia.
    Yes, "horrific". But if we put a number then what would be the death rate of Axis POW in Soviet captivity?

    Most German POWs were held for <b>ten years after the war.</B>
    Wrong. Do the reading.

    So, Chevan, Egorka, please do try to use some research a bit before posting some biased answer... I can only speak for myself, but I'm getting sick of your cold-war mentality. This forum is not about who's country was better/suffered the most/etc, it's about the historic facts.
    Ohhh my... no more comments...

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Like possible is possible, probable is not much, I ve seen histories of Luftwaffe pilots who deserted and some Heer who "deserted" but in fact I believe those cases are "last ditch" , the german just trying to not get bad treated and embraced the comunism, but mostly those were cocodrile tears.

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    I personally don't know of any desertion cases, but I don't see why it would be such a hard thing to believe that it happened, even while the Germans were still on the advance. War after all is hell and it affects people differently.
    Why is it such a stretch to think that a hardened Nazi breaks down and cries like a baby when shelled by artillery for the first time?

    As for German POWs in Soviet hands, it is historic fact that the last mass release of POWs was in 1955. Most were released in waves between 1950 and then. So depending on when you were caught you could expect at least 5 - 10 years of captivity.

    As for the actual survival rate that was proportional to when you were caught. Those that were captured between 1941 and 1943 had an atrocious death rate while the chances of returning home improved proportionally after 1943.

    For the record "Other Losses" By James Bacque is not a reliable source and
    "Other Losses" as well as his subsequent book, are absolute rubbish. "Other losses" itself was refuted by a panel of historians led by Stephen Ambrose.
    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=130908 This link also contains lots of links to other discussion topics on the treatment of German POWs by the Allies.

    Possible war crimes committed by SS Wiking:
    http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=135203

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by windrider View Post
    I don't know where you see any glorification of the Nazi in what I wrote.
    Why don't you start a thread on russian civilian casualties instead of always coming back to it everywhere?
    I have started it already .
    But his is wery close matter indeed.
    Just if one tells about fate of Germans POWs - this is not bad idea to compare it with the fate of SOviets Pows in GErmans camps.
    How do you think?
    Sorry for OFF topic.

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    Default Re: SS deserter on The Estern Front

    Quote Originally Posted by bas View Post
    As for German POWs in Soviet hands, it is historic fact that the last mass release of POWs was in 1955. Most were released in waves between 1950 and then. So depending on when you were caught you could expect at least 5 - 10 years of captivity.
    Hi,
    Thanx. Here is a little correction though:

    By far most of the German POWs were released BEFORE 1950.
    In fact it depended on the POW health condition. The weak ones were sent in 1946 - 1948 as Onkel Jo did not want to feed them and they went home earlier. The healthy ones were sent home in the period 1948-1950.

    Here is the rough overvew:
    end 1941 - 9.000
    19/Nov/1942 - 19.782
    15/Feb/1943 - 291.856
    May 1945 - 2.400.000 of German POWs
    12/Mar/1947 - 988.500 of German POWs
    1950 - 22.546 of Germans accused of crimes.
    1956 - 0

    As for the actual survival rate that was proportional to when you were caught. Those that were captured between 1941 and 1943 had an atrocious death rate while the chances of returning home improved proportionally after 1943.
    Bas, take a look at this thread. Besides some quarrelling it has some good info on the subject.

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