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Thread: German Artillery silencer !!

  1. #16
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    From what I gather overlord, the use of artillery noise suppression systems was limited in scope to a few problematic cases where noise was a constant factor with the local civilian population and where mobility was not demanded.
    That is the point indeed, To eliminate the big noise in order to not anoyinng civilians. Just think in the person/per squre meter relation in Europe is not small.l

    Overlord, not everybody have the privilege to live in the open wide spaces of the Americas, as we do.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Most European ranges (Small Arms and Artillery) are close to population masses of one size or another.

    As a rule, daily firings (from 0800 to 1700) are pretty much unregulated, except Sunday shoots. Night time firings are normally more strictly regulated.

    Even in Europe, it is possible to have rangs that do not affect many citizens. Many British Ranges (for example go out to sea).

    The ranges shown on the map above, are by far not the largest nor the closest to population centres. Even in Germany, and they are sure to be not amongst the most used. I can think of two places now that have both German and British Artillery firing daily.

    I wonder if there is a natural requirement. Such as birds nesting or similar?

    Or it could be technical. If the guns are required to fire for prolonged periods of time for testing and evaluation.

    Despite your countries vast open spaces, I would beleive that most of your training areas and ranges aren't that remote in themselves in comparison to European ones.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

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  3. #18
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    Most European ranges (Small Arms and Artillery) are close to population masses of one size or another.

    As a rule, daily firings (from 0800 to 1700) are pretty much unregulated, except Sunday shoots. Night time firings are normally more strictly regulated.

    Even in Europe, it is possible to have rangs that do not affect many citizens. Many British Ranges (for example go out to sea).

    The ranges shown on the map above, are by far not the largest nor the closest to population centres. Even in Germany, and they are sure to be not amongst the most used. I can think of two places now that have both German and British Artillery firing daily.

    I wonder if there is a natural requirement. Such as birds nesting or similar?

    Or it could be technical. If the guns are required to fire for prolonged periods of time for testing and evaluation.

    Despite your countries vast open spaces, I would beleive that most of your training areas and ranges aren't that remote in themselves in comparison to European ones.
    -

    The website of the Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen claims that WTD 91 covers an area of 200 square kilometres and is thus the largest "instrumented" firing range in Western Europe.

    Also according to quote below, project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded, the aim of the study was to develop effective muffler systems for a few very problematic cases. This is why noise suppression systems are really only feasible for the stationary or quasi-stationary operation of tube weapons in the future, e.g. for testing weapons and munitions at military test centers."...

    And according to Drake, downtown Meppen is only 2km away from the artillery range. Do you know of any artillery ranges that are closer to urban centers?

    -



    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...AGJAM654INFOEN

    The Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) belongs to the BWB organization. It is located in Meppen (Lower Saxony) and was founded in 1957.

    WTD 91 is the technology competence center for weapons and ammunition used by the Bundeswehr.

    WTD 91 covers an area of 200 square kilometres and is thus the largest instrumented firing range in Western Europe.

    The Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition

    conducts experiments and analyses as well as integrated compliance demonstrations as defined by the CPM (Customer Product Management) procedural regulations;
    manages research and technology (R&T) projects;
    provides technical support for armaments projects;
    and is responsible for the technical support of defense material during the in-service phase.
    During the years since its establishment, the test center has grown into a multi-purpose institution for investigating, testing and evaluating:

    weapons and weapon systems, any type of ammunition, rockets and missiles and UAVs;
    optical and optronic equipment for reconnaissance and fire control, acoustic devices as well as meteorological and geodetic equipment; shelters and protective installations, matters related to armor protection.In the fields of ballistics, acoustics, optronics and meteorology, WTD 91 is the only center of competence within the armaments sector.
    -

    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller View Post
    -

    Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen - technical center WTD 91 of the German Bundeswehr - Noise suppression systems for German tank guns and artillery.

    The latest news from the Rheinmetall group, 3 / 2000
    Das Profil
    Newsline
    http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf





    -
    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by overlord644 View Post
    artillery silencers, what the hell is the point
    -

    From what I gather overlord, the use of artillery noise suppression systems was limited in scope to a few problematic cases where noise was a constant factor with the local civilian population and where mobility was not demanded. The particular system shown in this thread is located at the Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen, Germany.

    Partial Quote:
    http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...5&postcount=13

    http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf

    Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen
    MaK muffler system operational in Scotland


    ...Project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded, the aim of the study was to develop effective muffler systems for a few very problematic cases. This is why noise suppression systems are really only feasible for the stationary or quasi-stationary operation of tube weapons in the future, e.g. for testing weapons and munitions at military test centers."...
    -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    ...WTD 91 isn't a training ground and it's not related to Rheinmetal, it's a bundeswehr weapons research center. Their fields of research includes for example acoustic measurements, permanent load tests, gun calibrations, high angle recovery shots etc. And if it's meant as a silencer it would actually make sense over here in germany cause the neighbours here are usually pissed if they hear a distant bang all through the day or night and you always have neighbours in germany. Downtown Meppen is only 2km away from the artillery range.
    -

    Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...AGJAM654INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...AGHYF049INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...GQKFE250INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...EB7SN227INFOEN

    -

    The Range Meppen
    http://www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

    In German with many color photographs.

    Babel Fish translator to translate url from German to English - just paste the above url and set to translate to English
    http://world.altavista.com/

    JPEG image of article as translated from German to English with Babel Fish:









    -







    -

  4. #19
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Wait out Georgeyboy, I'll have to check the maps.

    But given the fact you can drive from Sennelager town (civie part not the quarters) to one of the Gun positions in a few minutes, like wise on Bergan Hohne Ranges, actually, yes I do think there may be some other ranges that are as close as 2Km to the fireing points, or along the fireing trajectories.

    I have mentioned in previous posts, I have actual experience of firing artillery on German ranges, so don't go all churlish, just because I haven't leapt into bed with you and agreed to the data and opinions that has been published.

    For your information though Sennelager is half the area of Mappen, and Hohne is 140km2.

    Incidentally the Artillery training area in Grafenwehr, used by the US, UK and Germans is 229Km2 But isn't instrumented. Most instruments at these three sites are mobile and drive out when needed.

    When you have finished your churlish strop, perhaps you can come back and I'll tell you what is like actually driving around these ranges instead of viewing them on Googleearth.

    Perhaps you'd like to know what these guns sound like, when you are 2km, 1km sod it, standing behind them putting the next round in through the hatch?

    As I have said, there may be a reason for these mufflers that is natural (ie birds or similar nesting) or perhaps as Mappen is a testing ground they require to fire such guns for extended periods of time. Read my posts, I have pointed out that these ranges often shut down at night, except for some strictly regulated firings. You can't test the effects of continuous firing, if the firing is not continuous.

    You are aware, of course, that two kilometers can be too close for safe firing around civvies aren't you? Both at the fireing end and at the impact end. Under the arch it is possible. strangely. And if they are behind the guns.

    Like I say Georgey, I am not argueing this from the side of a internet dweller.
    Last edited by 1000ydstare; 02-07-2008 at 01:14 PM.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




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    Seen a little on TV.

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  5. #20
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Calm it down a tad here gentlemen - debate is fine, but keep it to debate. This applies to all of you. It's getting nearly as bad as one of Chevan's diatribes about Russia

  6. #21
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    Wait out Georgeyboy, I'll have to check the maps.

    But given the fact you can drive from Sennelager town (civie part not the quarters) to one of the Gun positions in a few minutes, like wise on Bergan Hohne Ranges, actually, yes I do think there may be some other ranges that are as close as 2Km to the fireing points, or along the fireing trajectories.

    I have mentioned in previous posts, I have actual experience of firing artillery on German ranges, so don't go all churlish, just because I haven't leapt into bed with you and agreed to the data and opinions that has been published.

    For your information though Sennelager is half the area of Mappen, and Hohne is 140km2.

    Incidentally the Artillery training area in Grafenwehr, used by the US, UK and Germans is 229Km2 But isn't instrumented. Most instruments at these three sites are mobile and drive out when needed.

    When you have finished your churlish strop, perhaps you can come back and I'll tell you what is like actually driving around these ranges instead of viewing them on Googleearth.

    Perhaps you'd like to know what these guns sound like, when you are 2km, 1km sod it, standing behind them putting the next round in through the hatch?

    As I have said, there may be a reason for these mufflers that is natural (ie birds or similar nesting) or perhaps as Mappen is a testing ground they require to fire such guns for extended periods of time. Read my posts, I have pointed out that these ranges often shut down at night, except for some strictly regulated firings. You can't test the effects of continuous firing, if the firing is not continuous.

    You are aware, of course, that two kilometers can be too close for safe firing around civvies aren't you? Both at the fireing end and at the impact end. Under the arch it is possible. strangely. And if they are behind the guns.

    Like I say Georgey, I am not argueing this from the side of a internet dweller.
    -

    Actually 1000yd, I believe that I've been quite civil in my posts, hardly churlish. On the whole I think that I have been very reasonable.

    For instance, I don't recall losing my temper and resorting to personal insults.

    -

  7. #22
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Neither do I mate, I haven't lost my temper once. And Georgey is hardly an insult. This is the internet you know.

    Anyway. Added info. It is worth noting, for all the claims of proximity of civvies etc to th eguns, that the ranges at Mappen (being experimental by nature) probably don't see as much firing as the the three I have listed. Certainly those three have seen firing (both artillery, tank and small arms) on a daily basis. But probably not on Sundays (German laws/regs).

    I've fired small arms on ranges closer than 1km to civvies, and we were not fitted with silencers.

    However, and this is why I bring in the nature aspect, it is worth noting that a ammo compound in UK is home to a very rare, almost extinct frog. Because of this the ammo techs there have to be very careful whilst driving, opening the blast doors and during all manner of other tasks.

    Also certain ranges are closed down due to various animal mating seasons, nurting seasons or even migration seasons.

    For example the Mappen range, with allits instrumentation is probably more at risk of affecting nature by this very instrumentation than by the guns firing.

    To count this, in one trianing area tanks are driven through on certain days. Apparently the tanks replicate some natural spreading method from years ago. The greens tried to shut down the area to the military when they found this rare flower. When the army ceased training the flower started dieing out!!!!

    You have to watch a mandatory (area specific) video called "Train Green" in order to exercise on certain areas.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




    Have you seen any combat?

    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



  8. #23
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    PDF is right. Keep a cool perspective on this and put your points across. Actually I wonder why anyone would paint a sound suppressor that size. Seems very stupid to me and a very expensive waste of paint.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    Neither do I mate, I haven't lost my temper once. And Georgey is hardly an insult. This is the internet you know.

    Anyway. Added info. It is worth noting, for all the claims of proximity of civvies etc to th eguns, that the ranges at Mappen (being experimental by nature) probably don't see as much firing as the the three I have listed. Certainly those three have seen firing (both artillery, tank and small arms) on a daily basis. But probably not on Sundays (German laws/regs).

    I've fired small arms on ranges closer than 1km to civvies, and we were not fitted with silencers.

    However, and this is why I bring in the nature aspect, it is worth noting that a ammo compound in UK is home to a very rare, almost extinct frog. Because of this the ammo techs there have to be very careful whilst driving, opening the blast doors and during all manner of other tasks.

    Also certain ranges are closed down due to various animal mating seasons, nurting seasons or even migration seasons.

    For example the Mappen range, with allits instrumentation is probably more at risk of affecting nature by this very instrumentation than by the guns firing.

    To count this, in one trianing area tanks are driven through on certain days. Apparently the tanks replicate some natural spreading method from years ago. The greens tried to shut down the area to the military when they found this rare flower. When the army ceased training the flower started dieing out!!!!

    You have to watch a mandatory (area specific) video called "Train Green" in order to exercise on certain areas.
    -

    I would have to disagree with your opening statement. "Georgeyboy, Georgey, churlish strop, internet dweller"...and the overall condescending tone of your previous post. I would say it was pretty obvious that you were losing your temper. Why, I am not really sure.

    I think that much of your posts are speculation on your part, that may or may not be fact. As I recall, in your first post on this thread, you were convinced that the image of the Pzh M109 with "schalldampfer" was a photoshop fake.

    If you would like to research further reasons as to why the artillery noise suppression system is used at Meppen have at it. If it turns out that there are other factors such as the nature aspect that played a part, that's fine with me. I am open to new information.

    I have learned a lot during my research in this thread and from others like yourself. This can be an interesting thread. So, let's keep it civil okay.

    -

  10. #25
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    I am currently chasing down some leads with people in the know regards the Camoflaged silencer at Meppen.

    Some of my posts are speculation, but most are based on experience. You did ask me for ranges with closer proximity than Mappen. I have stated some. There maybe others when you look at maps, etc. Likewise there are ranges that are no doubt busier.

    A big deal has been made over this silencer being used to pacify locals, yet, as I have pointed out. No other range appears to use it, even the ones that are similarly as close to populations centres. It strikes me as a white elephant.

    Much of Mappens 200km2 will be unusable as ranges, but just merely buffer space for shells landing, so populace will be kept quite far from harm and noise.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




    Have you seen any combat?

    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



  11. #26
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    I am currently chasing down some leads with people in the know regards the Camoflaged silencer at Meppen.

    Some of my posts are speculation, but most are based on experience. You did ask me for ranges with closer proximity than Mappen. I have stated some. There maybe others when you look at maps, etc. Likewise there are ranges that are no doubt busier.

    A big deal has been made over this silencer being used to pacify locals, yet, as I have pointed out. No other range appears to use it, even the ones that are similarly as close to populations centres. It strikes me as a white elephant.

    Much of Mappens 200km2 will be unusable as ranges, but just merely buffer space for shells landing, so populace will be kept quite far from harm and noise.
    -

    Thanks for the information. I do respect your experience on these matters. And it would be interesting to get some more insight about this.

    As cited in some of my previous posts, the use of artillery noise suppression systems was limited in scope to a few problematic cases where noise was a constant factor and where mobility was not demanded.

    http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...5&postcount=13

    http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf

    Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen
    MaK muffler system operational in Scotland


    ...Project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded, the aim of the study was to develop effective muffler systems for a few very problematic cases. This is why noise suppression systems are really only feasible for the stationary or quasi-stationary operation of tube weapons in the future, e.g. for testing weapons and munitions at military test centers."...
    -

  12. #27
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Mobilitly on most arty ranges is not demanded.

    The Gun points are fixed, Arty Guns always fire from a static pre-surveyed point (even in war) and on ranges these are clearly marked and the direction to fire indicated. Checks are made to ensure guns are firing "in arc".

    There are very few ranges where the guns could just rock up and fire, and even if they did, the gun points would be surveyed prior to their arrival.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




    Have you seen any combat?

    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



  13. #28
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    Mobilitly on most arty ranges is not demanded.

    The Gun points are fixed, Arty Guns always fire from a static pre-surveyed point (even in war) and on ranges these are clearly marked and the direction to fire indicated. Checks are made to ensure guns are firing "in arc".

    There are very few ranges where the guns could just rock up and fire, and even if they did, the gun points would be surveyed prior to their arrival.
    -

    Thanks for the feedback, 1000yd.

    I have a few questions.

    Looking at the pics of the MaK muffler system and the other one at Meppen, it appears that they are resting on static frames that are anchored to concrete piers. I'm not sure if the frame elevation is adjustable or not, but I assume that the traverse is not. Also, I assume that the muffler system itself is customized to the Pzh M109 155mm SPG. However, I'm not sure whether other self-propelled guns or towed artillery pieces would be compatible.

    You mentioned that at the range, the guns always fire from marked, static pre-surveyed points with the direction of fire indicated. In the case of the M-109, which is turreted, how much traverse is normally used while firing from these static positions? If traverse is needed, could this be a factor in the "high system mobility frequently demanded" as quoted from project manager Krumm?

    http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...8&postcount=26
    ...Project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded..."
    Also, I am thinking that if these static frames (anchored to concrete piers) were located at fixed gun points, would this create problems for other gun systems that would be using the range (towed artillery or incompatible SPG's)? Could that be a factor in the "high system mobility frequently demanded" as quoted above? In other words, would it be desirable to have a muffler system that can be easily moved to alternate locations?

    Just a few questions that I have for now. I am curious to get your feedback.

    Also, I will try to research this more. Thanks again.

    -

  14. #29
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    -

    I sent an inquiry to WTD-91 in Meppen, Germany on 14 February 2008
    and received the following reply and images this evening.
    Just thought I would share them with the forum.

    Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen

    E-mail contact form
    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...GQKFE250INFOEN

    -

    Dear Mr Eller

    With reference to your mail of 14 February 2008

    thank you for your mail regarding the shooting muffler for the PzH M109. We
    can give you the information that this system was only a study by a
    well-known german company. So we can not provide you a construction plan or
    any details about the function. It was tested here at the test center for
    weapon and ammunition a few years ago but it was not established in the
    Bundeswehr. Meanwhile our prototype was scrapped. Enclosed you will find a
    few pictures of the "schalldämpfer".

    (See attached file: 32x.jpg)(See attached file: 05x.jpg)(See attached file:
    15x.jpg)(See attached file: 02x.jpg)

    Yours sincerely,

    Thomas Jensen









    -

  15. #30
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    The inner structure of the schalldämpfer seems to bemore simple than I tough, good information there George.

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