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Thread: German Artillery silencer !!

  1. #1
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    Default German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller View Post
    -

    A "replica" huh...

    -
    That was me being politically correct

    Obviously the "replica" will be fitted into a firearm, 22 magnum for being more precise.

    Aniway I found out that the word for supressor is "schalldampfer", but all I get with the altavista and google image search is modern firearms and motorbike silenciators.
    I repeat any help will be very preciated.
    -

    Well, I wish you luck - I haven't been able to find much myself.

    I did come across this rather interesting "schalldampfer" during my search though. Used by the German Army on an M-109 155mm self-propelled gun. I guess you could call it an "uber-schalldampfer"


    http://www.panzerbaer.de/images/bw_p...meppen-001.JPG
    http://special_ed_2.tripod.com/tanksilencer.htm

    The Strategy Page Forum
    http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
    It's called a Schalldäempfer "Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)" link

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
    typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

    gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
    The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.
    -

    The Strategy Page Forum
    http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

    Shooter RE:What is this thing? 12/1/2004 12:33:47 AM
    It is a "sound supressor" or silencer for arty training some place were they want to test fire it, but have local problems with noise. Those cans are shipping containers for helo engines and other parts that require inert gas to prevent long term storage problems. They have been welded together to reduce muzzle blast of the M-109 A6 in the picture. Which may or may not be a put up. I'll bet it gets a 30DBa reduction in sound pressure! Now what do I win?

    gf0012-aust bloody hell 12/3/2004 4:07:20 AM
    the ferkin thing is a real price of kit for cryin out loud! It's used by the german army for velocity and break tests. it also is designed to act as a suppressor. this thing first cropped up a year ago. there are numerous shots of it on some of the german armoured forums. (JED??). Mil Forums like The Basement have identified it in the past. it's not photoshopped. It's the real deal.

    For Petes sake RE:bloody hell 12/8/2004 3:26:59 PM
    GF and Shooter are right. I just Googled it, and it is used by the Germans. It makes sense because they have to operate in civilian areas, or very near to them because of the population density. Everyone jumps to the conclusion that photos can be easily faked.. not true at all. In fact it's bloody difficult, I've been working as a pro with Photoshop for eight years, and I have yet to perfect the "doctored" photo.

    bluejacket RE:bloody hell 12/9/2004 12:16:24 AM
    For Petes sake ---- Would you please post the links? I have some folks I would like to show that this is real.

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
    It's called a Schalldäempfer "Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)" link

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
    typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

    gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
    The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.


    Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:18:45 AM
    Germany has a lot of environmental regulations that the US Army had to live with over the years. About the only area where unconstrained artillery firing was Grafenwohr, and in the 80s we were allowed to fire 363 days per year. No firing was allowed on Christmas and Easter Sunday. Since that time, and because the number of units firing declined greatly, more and more restrictions on firing have been put in place, though I do not have any details.

    Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:22:42 AM
    Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters. Germany is so urbanized in this regard that even where there are ranges and testign areas, they have a lot of neighbors.

    gf0012-aust further to this - Desetmole 12/11/2004 7:00:55 AM
    "Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters." I'm not so sure it's 800m. I have to go to Germany for work every 2 months or so - and there are big gaps in the middle. Typically I'm in Mannheim, Stuttgart, Ladenburg, Stuttgart. All of these have substantial acreage in between.

    Desertmole RE:further to this - Desetmole 12/12/2004 12:33:07 PM

    I saw a terrain study back in the 80s that said that was the average distance. I know it certainly seemed true in upper Bavaria where I was stationed at the time. In those areas, take a closer look at the countryside. Many of the seemingly clear areas will have small hamlets (maybe 6-8 houses and a barn or two) between the larger cities and towns.
    -

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Well, I wish you luck - I haven't been able to find much myself.

    I did come across this rather interesting "schalldampfer" during my search though. Used by the German Army on an M-109 155mm self-propelled gun. I guess you could call it an "uber-schalldampfer"

    George......that is completely crazy !!!, it should go in my Panzer Projects and prototipes topic .

    Okay P.K. I had a thought this morning, I recall an article printed in the magazine Guns&Ammo in the 70's the topic was a garden silencer of shooting quietly in ones garden, (backyard for those of Colonial persuasion) I believe it was produced by Mauser, and was commonly available in the early part of the 20th century. It was a baffle type, so if you google up Mauser+silencer+suppressor+garden you may find info on it. It was then, and now the practice of the military utilizing commercially produced items off the shelf for military purposes, so you might get lucky..
    I will give a try on that.

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller View Post
    -

    Well, I wish you luck - I haven't been able to find much myself.

    I did come across this rather interesting "schalldampfer" during my search though. Used by the German Army on an M-109 155mm self-propelled gun. I guess you could call it an "uber-schalldampfer"


    http://www.panzerbaer.de/images/bw_p...meppen-001.JPG
    http://special_ed_2.tripod.com/tanksilencer.htm



    -



    -

    Hrhrhrhr, this is so funny, no wonder we lost the wars with that kind of mental attitude
    There is no problem a german engineer can't fix, however if there is no problem, go find one.
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    OK, i'll nibble.



    Have you heard of photoshop?

    This is complete rubbish. There is no way a silencer, even this big, can cope with a 155mm gun going off.

    Not only that, it appears the muzzle is resting on the bottom of the gun hatch. Given the size of the hatch at the bottom one can surmise the holes in the middle and end of the silencer are at least as big. Or the shell would punch through the silencer. A hole that big would defeat the whole point of the silencer. Bearing in mind it is not a sealled hole at the bottome either.

    Why only have the expansion chambers left and right? Looks like a penis and testicles, but doesn't take in to acount the 360 degree nature of the expansion around the fired muzzle.

    Why is it camoflaged when the stand is clearly not? Could it be that the cylinders bear a more than passing resembleence to the current Bundewher tankers cylinder? Which also has a similar inspection hatch?

    The gun doesn't seem to be fitted with the mandatory safety equipment for range fireing in Germany either, and if it requires chocking to prevent the base platform from moving it shouldn't be firing either. The tracks on such SP Guns are more than adequate to prevent movement of such guns firing. Otherwise the Tracked SP gun would be worse than useless.
    Last edited by 1000ydstare; 02-05-2008 at 07:01 AM.
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Hmm guess we could only find out if we asked the WTD 91 in Meppen.
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    OK, i'll nibble.



    Have you heard of photoshop?

    This is complete rubbish. There is no way a silencer, even this big, can cope with a 155mm gun going off.

    Not only that, it appears the muzzle is resting on the bottom of the gun hatch. Given the size of the hatch at the bottom one can surmise the holes in the middle and end of the silencer are at least as big. Or the shell would punch through the silencer. A hole that big would defeat the whole point of the silencer. Bearing in mind it is not a sealled hole at the bottome either.

    Why only have the expansion chambers left and right? Looks like a penis and testicles, but doesn't take in to acount the 360 degree nature of the expansion around the fired muzzle.

    Why is it camoflaged when the stand is clearly not? Could it be that the cylinders bear a more than passing resembleence to the current Bundewher tankers cylinder? Which also has a similar inspection hatch?

    The gun doesn't seem to be fitted with the mandatory safety equipment for range fireing in Germany either, and if it requires chocking to prevent the base platform from moving it shouldn't be firing either. The tracks on such SP Guns are more than adequate to prevent movement of such guns firing. Otherwise the Tracked SP gun would be worse than useless.
    -

    1000yd, did you read my original post? According to members at the Strategy Page forum who checked into this, the photo is legitimate. Read some of the posts below.

    http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...3&postcount=10

    I did come across this rather interesting "schalldampfer" during my search though. Used by the German Army on an M-109 155mm self-propelled gun. I guess you could call it an "uber-schalldampfer"


    http://www.panzerbaer.de/images/bw_p...meppen-001.JPG
    http://special_ed_2.tripod.com/tanksilencer.htm

    The Strategy Page Forum
    http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
    It's called a Schalldäempfer "Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)" link

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
    typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

    gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
    The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.
    -

    The Strategy Page Forum
    http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/410-104.aspx

    Cocoonboy RE:In all honesty.... 11/28/2004 7:54:11 PM
    It seems real. That's not photoshop, I ran it through and all shadows are correct. Probably some form of computer that absorbs the blast, impact and so on. Either that or it's some Larry Flynt stunt..

    Shooter RE:What is this thing? 12/1/2004 12:33:47 AM
    It is a "sound supressor" or silencer for arty training some place were they want to test fire it, but have local problems with noise. Those cans are shipping containers for helo engines and other parts that require inert gas to prevent long term storage problems. They have been welded together to reduce muzzle blast of the M-109 A6 in the picture. Which may or may not be a put up. I'll bet it gets a 30DBa reduction in sound pressure! Now what do I win?

    gf0012-aust bloody hell 12/3/2004 4:07:20 AM
    the ferkin thing is a real price of kit for cryin out loud! It's used by the german army for velocity and break tests. it also is designed to act as a suppressor. this thing first cropped up a year ago. there are numerous shots of it on some of the german armoured forums. (JED??). Mil Forums like The Basement have identified it in the past. it's not photoshopped. It's the real deal.

    For Petes sake RE:bloody hell 12/8/2004 3:26:59 PM
    GF and Shooter are right. I just Googled it, and it is used by the Germans. It makes sense because they have to operate in civilian areas, or very near to them because of the population density. Everyone jumps to the conclusion that photos can be easily faked. not true at all. In fact it's bloody difficult, I've been working as a pro with Photoshop for eight years, and I have yet to perfect the "doctored" photo.


    bluejacket RE:bloody hell 12/9/2004 12:16:24 AM
    For Petes sake ---- Would you please post the links? I have some folks I would like to show that this is real.

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer 12/10/2004 2:56:40 AM
    It's called a Schalldäempfer "Das Photo zeigt eine PzH M109 mit Schalldäempfer bei der Wehrtechnischen Dienststelle (WTD) in Meppen) (Photo: Pahlkötter)" link

    gf0012-aust Schalldäempfer - oops 12/10/2004 2:59:58 AM
    typo: correct spelling is Schalldämpfer

    gf0012-aust further to this 12/10/2004 3:09:01 AM
    The german army has a ballistics test range in Meppen. This is where this particular piece of equipment is.


    Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:18:45 AM
    Germany has a lot of environmental regulations that the US Army had to live with over the years. About the only area where unconstrained artillery firing was Grafenwohr, and in the 80s we were allowed to fire 363 days per year. No firing was allowed on Christmas and Easter Sunday. Since that time, and because the number of units firing declined greatly, more and more restrictions on firing have been put in place, though I do not have any details.

    Desertmole RE:further to this 12/11/2004 6:22:42 AM
    Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters. Germany is so urbanized in this regard that even where there are ranges and testign areas, they have a lot of neighbors.

    gf0012-aust further to this - Desetmole 12/11/2004 7:00:55 AM
    "Also, one must remember that the average distance between villages and towns is something like 800 meters." I'm not so sure it's 800m. I have to go to Germany for work every 2 months or so - and there are big gaps in the middle. Typically I'm in Mannheim, Stuttgart, Ladenburg, Stuttgart. All of these have substantial acreage in between.

    Desertmole RE:further to this - Desetmole 12/12/2004 12:33:07 PM

    I saw a terrain study back in the 80s that said that was the average distance. I know it certainly seemed true in upper Bavaria where I was stationed at the time. In those areas, take a closer look at the countryside. Many of the seemingly clear areas will have small hamlets (maybe 6-8 houses and a barn or two) between the larger cities and towns.
    -

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    And the British and US Armies Artillery (which use the same ranges as the Germans in Germany) are exempt the use of this particular equipment because?.......

    I'll do some digging but in 4 years of working with an Arty Training establishment in Germany I never saw anything like this. And that includes a trip to the Rheinmetal factory itself (which in some sites is alledgedly the home of this beast, and photodated to my time at the unit).

    For you Splinter



    Last edited by 1000ydstare; 02-05-2008 at 02:06 PM.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




    Have you seen any combat?

    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    And the British and US Armies Artillery (which use the same ranges as the Germans in Germany) are exempt the use of this particular equipment because?.......

    I'll do some digging but in 4 years of working with an Arty Training establishment in Germany I never saw anything like this. And that includes a trip to the Rheinmetal factory itself (which in some sites is alledgedly the home of this beast, and photodated to my time at the unit).
    But the WTD91 isn't a training ground and it's not related to Rheinmetal, it's a bundeswehr weapons research center. Their fields of research includes for example acoustic measurements, permanent load tests, gun calibrations, high angle recovery shots etc. And if it's meant as a silencer it would actually make sense over here in germany cause the neighbours here are usually pissed if they hear a distant bang all through the day or night and you always have neighbours in germany. Downtown Meppen is only 2km away from the artillery range.
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    But the WTD91 isn't a training ground and it's not related to Rheinmetal, it's a bundeswehr weapons research center. Their fields of research includes for example acoustic measurements, permanent load tests, gun calibrations, high angle recovery shots etc. And if it's meant as a silencer it would actually make sense over here in germany cause the neighbours here are usually pissed if they hear a distant bang all through the day or night and you always have neighbours in germany. Downtown Meppen is only 2km away from the artillery range.
    -

    Thanks for the feedback Drake

    I guess that I could try to contact WTD 91 in Meppen to verify this.

    -

    Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...AGJAM654INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...AGHYF049INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...GQKFE250INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...EB7SN227INFOEN

    -

    http://www.cervus.de/publikationen/BuHiBaltimore01.pdf

    http://209.85.207.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=us

    -

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...p/t-47489.html

    http://www.silencertests.com/albums/...lldaempfer.jpg

    http://www.silencertests.com/albums/...esst.sized.jpg

    http://www.silencertests.com/albums/...pfer.sized.jpg

    -

    http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...id=6023&page=1

    in the bottom left of the picture it says "Courtesy: pahlkötter" so i did a search for "pahlkötter" and found he's the author of a book about modern armor? i don't speak German so I'm not sure what the title says, buts here's a picture of his book, I'd bet thats where the picture came from.


    pahlkötter

    -

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    1000yds wrote:

    Have you heard of photoshop?

    This is complete rubbish. There is no way a silencer, even this big, can cope with a 155mm gun going off.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    If this works for the others, you should work for you. better read twice before accuse a Moderator of posting rubbish.

    "Here endth the lesson." You owe an apology to George Eller.

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller View Post
    -




    pahlkötter

    -
    The title says:

    Wheeled and tracked vehicles of the Bundeswehr in the '90ies
    Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    Have you heard of photoshop?

    This is complete rubbish. There is no way a silencer, even this big, can cope with a 155mm gun going off.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    If this works for the others, you should work for you. better read twice before accuse a Moderator of posting rubbish.

    "Here endth the lesson." You owe an apology to George Eller.
    -

    Thanks Panzerknacker

    -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller View Post
    -



    -
    The title says:

    Wheeled and tracked vehicles of the Bundeswehr in the '90ies
    -

    Thanks for the translation Drake

    The post about that book was originally made in November 2002, so the pic by Manfred Pahlkötter of the Panzerhaubitze M109 with schalldampfer at WTD 91 in Meppen may have come from the book as Bob (CALLSIGN: Sohcahtoa) speculated at the ARMORAMA.com Forum. (The book dates to 1997).

    It may have been a later development, but no later than 2002.

    -

    ARMORAMA.com Forum

    http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?...id=6023&page=1

    Armor/AFV: Modern Armor
    Modern armor in general. Hosted by: Jim Starkweather

    Subject: Artillery silencer?!!?!!

    Anthony Sadler (CALLSIGN: TheCrazedLog)
    Posted: Friday, November 08, 2002 - 12:27 AM UTC


    Appently, its at Meppan. Locals got annoyed with the constant test firing, so the germans made that...THING...

    -

    Bob (CALLSIGN: Sohcahtoa)
    Posted: Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 12:00 PM UTC

    in the bottom left of the picture it says "Courtesy: pahlkötter" so i did a search for "pahlkötter" and found he's the author of a book about modern armor? i don't speak German so I'm not sure what the title says, buts here's a picture of his book, I'd bet thats where the picture came from.

    -

    Wheeled vehicles and tracked vehicles of the German Armed Forces in the 90 years (Hardcover) - 1997
    http://translate.google.com/translat...26as_qdr%3Dall

    -

    Manfred Pahlkötter
    http://images.google.com/images?q=+%...n&start=0&sa=N


    Pahlkötter
    http://images.google.com/images?as_s...=Search+Images

    -

    Panzerhaubitze M109
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzerhaubitze_M109

    M109 howitzer
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M109_howitzer

    -

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    -

    Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen - technical center WTD 91 of the German Bundeswehr - Noise suppression systems for German tank guns and artillery.

    The latest news from the Rheinmetall group, 3 / 2000
    Das Profil
    Newsline
    http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf





    -

    ALSO:



    You will find a different view of the Pzh M109 155mm self-propelled gun with "schalldampfer" shown above left at the following website of The Range Meppen.

    The Range Meppen
    http://www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

    In German with many color photographs, including a different view of the picture at top left.



    Babel Fish translator to translate url from German to English - just paste the above url and set to translate to English
    http://world.altavista.com/

    -

    http://www.com-central.net/index.php...wtopic&p=18392

    Hello Jeff,
    This picture is taken at Meppen in Germany, for some pictures and German text;

    www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

    Here is the WTD 91 (Wehr Technische Dienststelle 91) located which test all types of ammo. As mentioned in another post it is close by civilian population centers. The device is a gigantic silencer and in use with the artillery, not tanks. Meppen is also one of the places were it is allowed to fire the LKE II round. For example, the NL army did some test with the Germans here with the LKE II, firing rounds from -50 to +50 to see what the effects are. This was done without silencer.
    -

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    artillery silencers, what the hell is the point

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    Default Re: German Artillery silencer !!

    Quote Originally Posted by overlord644 View Post
    artillery silencers, what the hell is the point
    -

    From what I gather overlord, the use of artillery noise suppression systems was limited in scope to a few problematic cases where noise was a constant factor with the local civilian population and where mobility was not demanded. The particular system shown in this thread is located at the Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen, Germany.

    Partial Quote:
    http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...5&postcount=13

    http://www.kspg-ag.de/pdfdoc/newsline_3_2000.pdf

    Further studies on operational spectrum at Meppen
    MaK muffler system operational in Scotland


    ...Project manager Krumm points out that "since the universal use of noise suppression systems for tube weapons of the German Army for training purposes is inconceivable due to the high system mobility frequently demanded, the aim of the study was to develop effective muffler systems for a few very problematic cases. This is why noise suppression systems are really only feasible for the stationary or quasi-stationary operation of tube weapons in the future, e.g. for testing weapons and munitions at military test centers."...
    -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake View Post
    ...WTD 91 isn't a training ground and it's not related to Rheinmetal, it's a bundeswehr weapons research center. Their fields of research includes for example acoustic measurements, permanent load tests, gun calibrations, high angle recovery shots etc. And if it's meant as a silencer it would actually make sense over here in germany cause the neighbours here are usually pissed if they hear a distant bang all through the day or night and you always have neighbours in germany. Downtown Meppen is only 2km away from the artillery range.
    -

    Bundeswehr Technical Center for Weapons and Ammunition (WTD 91) in Meppen

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...AGJAM654INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...AGHYF049INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...GQKFE250INFOEN

    http://www.bwb.org/01DB022000000001/...EB7SN227INFOEN

    -

    The Range Meppen
    http://www.relikte.com/meppen/index.htm

    In German with many color photographs.

    Babel Fish translator to translate url from German to English - just paste the above url and set to translate to English
    http://world.altavista.com/

    JPEG image of article as translated from German to English with Babel Fish:









    -







    -

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