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Thread: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

  1. #1
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    Default Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    Does anybody have drawings/pictures and some data about silencers used by the german military. I am very much interested since recently purchased some duralumiun barstock and want to made a replica in my lathes.

    I search in Lexikon der Wehrmacht but the info is really vague.
    Any help would be preciated.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Supressors/silencers for small arms..

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Does anybody have drawings/pictures and some data about silencers used by the german military. I am very much interested since recently purchased some duralumiun barstock and want to made a replica in my lathes.

    I seach in lexikon der Wehrmacht but the info is really vague.
    Any help would be preciated.
    -

    A "replica" huh...

    -

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Supressors/silencers for small arms..

    A "replica" huh...
    That was me being politically correct

    Obviously the "replica" will be fitted into a firearm, 22 magnum for being more precise.

    Aniway I found out that the word for supressor is "schalldampfer", but all I get with the altavista and google image search is modern firearms and motorbike silenciators.
    I repeat any help will be very preciated.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Supressors/silencers for small arms.

    Our P.K's Italian heritage must be coming out,,,,,
    There are entire books about suppressors/silencers, I'm sure you will find a source for one on line.
    Earlier versions were either of the "Baffle" or "diffusion" types, baffles were just pressed steel washers, in a tube that fastened to the bbl. these washers were shaped in section somewhat like a bundt cake pan, the inner hole being of the needed dia. for the caliber, this would retain the gasses while the slug passed through, then expand to fill the next chamber, on and on until the slug exits, and the gas now slowed, makes little sound.
    Diffusers, use a tube within a tube, the inner being the part that fastens to the weapon, it is drilled to just larger than the needed dia. this tube then has small holes drilled along the length on all four sides, to allow the gas to bleed into the diffuser chamber. the inner tube is then wound with ordinary metal window screen 2which extends to the last inch of the tubes length. Wound not too tight, or loose, and enough to allow the outer tube to fit over it all.
    for the last inch, wide washers of the screen material are cut to fit into the outer tubes, and slide over the inner one.
    The last part is a threaded flat cap, that screws into the end of the outer tube, this compresses the washers, and snugs up the entire device. remember to drill a hole in the center of the endcap,, so the slug can leave
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 02-01-2008 at 05:56 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Supressors/silencers for small arms.

    Yeap, I have some books like "modern Firearms silencers" by David J.Truby.

    My "problem" is that those said nothing about supressors of de German Army in WW2.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    There were some other books too,, about not so modern snuffers, and spy guns, sleeve guns, such type assassination weapons,, that might have a pic of one,, being such an arcane device, there may be no images. Though I do hope you find some.

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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    Didn't Skorzeny use a captured silenced Sten SMG?

    And i think you could use a silencer for the Walther PPK, because that gun was developped in that era - but if it was used with a silencer in WW2, i don't know - but James Bond used to use a PPK with silencer
    All it would need is a Waffenamt Stamp with the NS Eagle on it and it would look like a real silencer :P
    Greetings Splinter54
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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    Sorry but I dont know about Skorzeny silenced Sten.

    And i think you could use a silencer for the Walther PPK, because that gun was developped in that era - but if it was used with a silencer in WW2, i don't know - but James Bond used to use a PPK with silencer
    All it would need is a Waffenamt Stamp with the NS Eagle on it and it would look like a real silencer :P
    Yup, the PPK is a very "silencer liked" gun because it fixed barrel, I do used a silencer in my Bersa .22 some time ago, But I made the mistake to use plastic instead metal and it did not lasted too long.

    By the way the old Bersas are very much like the PPKs. Even they had a treaded barrel muzzle that make everything easier.

    Bersa model 25




    Though I do hope you find some.
    The seach will continue !!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    Okay P.K. I had a thought this morning, I recall an article printed in the magazine Guns&Ammo in the 70's the topic was a garden silencer of shooting quietly in ones garden, (backyard for those of Colonial persuasion) I believe it was produced by Mauser, and was commonly available in the early part of the 20th century. It was a baffle type, so if you google up Mauser+silencer+suppressor+garden you may find info on it. It was then, and now the practice of the military utilizing commercially produced items off the shelf for military purposes, so you might get lucky..
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 02-02-2008 at 07:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    The "silenced PPK" used in from Russia with Love is actually a Browning 1910 made by FN...
    1884 electric cartridge. Look similar to anything?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    I searched a bit:

    -
    http://www.small-arms-import.ch/books.php?xy=24
    SILENCERS FOR HAND FIREARMS : German silencers since the 2nd WW - so eventually you might find some ideas looking at the very early models of silencers?

    -
    http://www.patronensammler.de/patrone_des_monats.htm
    Mai 2005
    7,92 x 57 Nahpatrone

    Hierbei handelt es sich um eine Spezialpatrone zur Verwendung aus Waffen mit Schalldämpfer aus dem II. Weltkrieg, Deutschland. Auffällig ist die Markierung. Die Hülse ist komplett grün lackiert. Hersteller ist cg (Finower Industrie GmbH)



    -
    http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...pistolen-R.htm
    Some infos about silenced pistols.

    -
    http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewto...b71f4bfbdcc6f1
    They say, that even the StG44 was able to be equipped with a silencer - i doubt that

    -
    And now a great thing i discovered at wikipedia
    The Ruger MK II with integrated silencer (looks a bit like the Noiseless Pistol PB1s - the modified Makarov) - looks really like a very modernized version of a Luger - love that gun
    Greetings Splinter54
    Honor ruborque!

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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    Thanks Splinter, well, if the germans had a devoted factories for the dedicated subsonic ammo ( ammo that the western allies had not) is a good indication of the use of the schalldampfer was no a minor issue.

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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    Depends why they wanted the Sub-Sonic Ammo. It has other uses, than just for silenced weapons.

    The slugs are often larger and more unstable. I am just guessing here, but for a "Trench Broom" such as the Long Lugers or similar from WW1, short range but an instant effect could be required. Also handy in Urban Ops, where the risks of Supersonic rounds bouncing of walls, etc goes up.

    Likewise, the slaughter of Jews and other prisoners (which at the start of the war was largely done by gunfire, rather than the gasses used for the later "industrial" scale killings. Would also have benefited from such ammunition. Likewise anystray rounds wouldn't travel to far, and the risks of richochet are reduced.

    The only large scale sileneced weapons I know of were the Sten and the Welrod, some of the Stens were produced in other countries including Poland, and a Carbine which was used in the Jungle alot and by Commandos (the De Lyle).

    The Welrod was a 9mm pistol (single shot), all had fixed silencers that were part of the barrel and none removable. The Sten featured a canvass wrap around the barrel and silencer because of the heat it would build up during firing.

    The Germans used captured silenced weapons, but I am not sure if they manufactured their own in any great numbers. The Sten Mk IIS (silenced mk 2s) even had a German designation (they must ahve been that prolific) of MP.751e. (All captured Stens were labeld MP.75(digit)e.

    The Stens, Welrods and De lyles used the baffled silencer method.

    The Germans seem to have relyed on add on silencers for their silencing requirments, but even they were rare. However it highly likly, that bar a few specialised units of commandos, that the Germans never saw a need for them. And the captured Sten MkIIS' may well have filled their requirements admirably. These were actually the most common silenced weapons used by the Germans.

    I have found mention of the following weapons having add on silencers (albeit often rare examples or only prototypes), list below,

    P-08 (add on silencer);pictures prove that it existed
    Walther PP and PPK (add on silencer) pictures prove that it existed
    P-38 were built after the war
    Revolver 612(r) [Nagant 1885]: (add on silencer) prototype only, research carried out by the "SS-Waffenakademie"
    G43: all G43 produced from mid-1944 onwards were fitted to use a suppressor, very rare.
    K98K: rebuilt Soviet S-40 silencer


    The following had fitted silencers
    Steyr M12/M16 machine pistol used by the Brandenburgers (heavily cutdown version of the M12 and reduced capacity magazine)
    Mp-40rototype only
    Kommando-Karabiner: special rifle with the silencer of the Mp 751(e)(the Sten MKIIS 1000ydstare), only four Karabiner built, but did see service.

    The Germans didn't really go in for clandestine ops to the same level as teh British (including the various Resistance Movements in the occupied countries). Likewise, assasinations inside Germanys reach was really the job of the SS or Gestapo, who didn't really go in for the subtleties of the silenced weapon.

    All of their attempts to silence weapons appear to be reengineering of British (mainly) weapons and at least one from Russia.

    The British mainly went in for the baffles, as previously mentioned. The Russians seem to have favoured this method also. So at a guess, I would say the baffles is the way to go for a silenced German replica.
    Last edited by 1000ydstare; 02-05-2008 at 03:30 AM.
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    Seen a little on TV.

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  14. #14
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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    I am spliting the artilley silencer post.

    The post by 1000yds has been moved to the Moderators section to evaluate if there is a infraction involved.

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    Default Re: Suppressors/silencers for small arms.

    Behave. Leave it in situ and get the mods to have a look at the whole thread. Or are you concerned that your post may be considered in a poor light?

    I was going to ask about why you had allowed such a spurious excursion to the topic, without comment.
    Last edited by 1000ydstare; 02-06-2008 at 06:17 AM.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




    Have you seen any combat?

    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



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