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View Poll Results: Do you think the 17pounder was the best of at gun of ww2?

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  • Yes! And way ahead of it's time too!

    4 22.22%
  • Well, it was the way of the future, but in ww2 the '88' ruled!

    5 27.78%
  • No, I'm a beliver in the German 88mm

    7 38.89%
  • the Soviet 76mm 'ratchbum', was good and there were so much more of them made...

    2 11.11%
  • Guns were leathal, but the 'way of the future' was hand held equipment

    4 22.22%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

  1. #106
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    More excellent data, cogently put, thanks, T-G.
    I note that while the 17pdr used the discarding sabot-type penetrator, there were concerns about its
    potential to cause an erratic ballistic trajectory/accuracy problem, & so, the Germans did not use them.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    They didn't really need an APDS munition,Germany had collapsing flange Tungsten Carbide projo's for their taper bore guns, and those worked just fine, until stocks of the material became so short that Hitler ordered all remaining stocks to be used for machine tooling only. After which it was back to Steel shot which while it was useful in regular guns, was substandard for use in very high velocity Tapered Bore applications. Steel was not strong, or hard enough to withstand the impact, and would break up on striking the target.
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 07-29-2013 at 12:56 PM.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Indeed, a problem..
    & so, in Speer's book, an early mention of depleted Uranium as a Tungsten penetrator substitute..

  4. #109
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    And even less of that than Carbide available, Was there any(at the time) enriched Uranium that was around long enough to have become depleted? Sounds like someone was planning for a future material that would never be available to the Reich.
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 07-29-2013 at 05:45 PM.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    From memory, the Nazis held quite a stock, & Speer wanted best use made of it, including investigating 'dirty bombs'..

    I understand that getting hold of the German Uranium was a listed priority, post-war too..

  6. #111
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    From memory, the Nazis held quite a stock, & Speer wanted best use made of it, including investigating 'dirty bombs'..

    I understand that getting hold of the German Uranium was a listed priority, post-war too..
    Nope, they never had a Uranium enrichment project (what bomb work there was concentrated on Plutonium, which given how badly they screwed up their moderators was a problem!). The Germans did however experiment with natural Uranium anti-tank shells, although IIRC they didn't make very many.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

  7. #112
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Ok, then, & thanks for clarifying that, pdf-27..

  8. #113
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    Indeed, a problem..
    & so, in Speer's book, an early mention of depleted Uranium as a Tungsten penetrator substitute..
    Can you give a reference - Book - Chapter - page etc
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Not at this point, but, - it was, from memory - in his 1st book, written [illegally] while in Spandau..

  10. #115
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Speer was often filled with self-aggrandizing shit...

  11. #116
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Yet, he convinced the Allied War Crimes Trial that they ought not string him up..

    Not a bad effort for someone who was one of Adolf's B.F.s..

  12. #117
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    And was a Nazi Party member very early on. I'm not sure if he was one even before Adolph was but might have been...

  13. #118
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    As far as Speer is concerned, he thought little of taking credit for others' work. His predecessor, Fritz Todt, laid much of the ground work for the "Armaments Miracle" and Speer would often cherry pick statistics like when gloated over the increase in tank production from 1941 in 1942, deliberately choosing the lowest production month in 41' and the highest production month under his reign in 1942 to exaggerate the seeming boom in panzers coming off the line. That's not to say that Speer wasn't talented, intelligent, and a very good organizer in his own right because he certainly was. I suspect what saved him from the gallows was the fact that he had a supercilious demeanor that seemed contrary to the typical Nazi idiot thugs like Boermann. I think he rarely donned a uniform and seemed more like a German industrialist than a diehard Nazi loyalist. I also believe he tended to largely gloss over antisemitism and didn't seem to hate Jews in the same vein as the conspiratorial zeal and mindset of Hitler. That's not to say that killing large numbers of them and working them to death appeared to bother him much, either.

    Fritz Todt died in a plane crash, leading to speculation that it was the Waffen-SS that did him in for urging Hitler to end the war in 1941 as he saw the inevitable Red tide turning. Speer certainly had no reservations and was a true believer almost to the end. His statements of regret and remorse at Nuremberg not withstanding...

  14. #119
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    As far as Speer is concerned, he thought little of taking credit for others' work. His predecessor, Fritz Todt, laid much of the ground work for the "Armaments Miracle" and Speer would often cherry pick statistics like when he gloated over the seemingly massive increase in tank production from 1941 in 1942, deliberately choosing the lowest production month in 41' and the highest production month under his reign in 1942 to exaggerate the seeming boom in panzers coming off the line. That's not to say that Speer wasn't talented, intelligent, and a very good organizer in his own right because he certainly was. I suspect what saved him from the gallows was the fact that he had a supercilious demeanor that seemed contrary to the typical Nazi idiot thugs like Bormann. I think he rarely donned a uniform and seemed more like a German industrialist than a diehard Nazi loyalist. I also believe he tended to largely gloss over antisemitism and didn't seem to hate Jews in the same vein as the conspiratorial zeal and mindset of Hitler. That's not to say that killing large numbers of them and working them to death appeared to bother him much, either.

    Fritz Todt died in a plane crash, leading to speculation that it was the Waffen-SS that did him in for urging Hitler to end the war in 1941 as he saw the inevitable Red tide turning. Speer, in contrast, certainly had no reservations and was a true believer almost to the end - his statements of regret and remorse at Nuremberg not withstanding...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 07-31-2013 at 12:03 PM.

  15. #120
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    Default Re: The 17pounder at gun. The forgotten best tank killer of ww2!

    Curiously, the grandiose architectural style favoured by those 2 good artistic buddies Hitler & Speer..

    .. has an echo in the Australian Federal Parliament building in Canberra, with its massively vaulting oblong façade..

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