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Thread: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    Quote Originally Posted by imi View Post
    Major:I saw some picture the Waffen SS is used the "schnellfeuer",but the only problem this gun is, too much the recoil power,and the gun would be inaccuracy
    Nice gun!
    Got a C96 as a soft-air version (-:
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.


  3. #108
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    Oooo, how nice, kind of fast isn't it.


    "A pint of sweat saves a gallon of blood."
    - General George S. Patton
    "War Isn't about Dying for your country, its about making the other basterd die for his." - Patton

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    It also had a side magazine, scope, and a pike bayonet, not to mention the bipod. What more do you want? *A cheap pricetag?


    *that was the ultimate problem with the FG42

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    The rate of fire is awesome indeed, sound like 900 or 1000 rounds per minute.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    The guy looked like he wanted to go full auto but it had some recoil.


    "A pint of sweat saves a gallon of blood."
    - General George S. Patton
    "War Isn't about Dying for your country, its about making the other basterd die for his." - Patton

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    The G-41 has to be one of my fav rifles but i never knew it was desighned to be used as as a bolt action if the automatic system failed...

    Nick.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    G43 is my favorite rifle, hands down. The StG44 is pretty nice, too, but there are no (legal) versions of it anywhere in my price range, so I'll have to pass on that
    It would suck with a 5-shot magazine, anyway. Stupid regulations
    The fundamental problem of Democracy is that the majority of voters are idiots fueled by uninformed rage - and the Politicians do everything to cater to them.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    Found this excellent report:


    Origin of the 7.92x33 and 7,62x39 cartrigdes:


    According to the most reliable German sources of information the original 7.9 x 33 mm assault rifle was design of HUGO SCHMEISSER, designer of the very first submachine gun model: MP 18-I. (Earlier Italian OFFICINE VILLAR-PEROSA Modelo 1915 was nothing more but a scaled-down version of FIAT machine gun). Early prototypes of Schmeisser-designed rifle were known as MASCHINENKARABINER 42 (H). They had an action about similar to that of Czechian BRNO/ British BREN light machine guns, appreciated by Hugo Schmeisser. Brno guns were produced also for German Wehrmacht since 1938, when an "artifical republic" of Czecho-Slovakia was annulled and became a part of the Great German Reich as a Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

    The stamped steel construction of German MKb 42s was designed by a firm MERZ-WERKEN in Frankfurt a.M., a manufacturer of typewriters and cash registers (without any previous connection to the gunsmithing but with an experience from the most complicated steel stampings of 1941 - 42 era). Merz-Werken made the outer casing, and a famed firearms manufacturer C.G. HAENEL in Suhl made the active parts of MKb 42 (H). Hugo Schmeisser was a leader of a designer group in Haenel plant. That machine carbine was like a cross-breed of a light machine gun and submachine gun, chambered for the intermediate-sized cartridge of earlier design. The carbine shot "by open bolt", like most of the submachine guns then and today, or it was a "slam firer".

    Another German firm WAFFENFABRIK CARL WALTHER at Zella-Mehlis made also prototype rifles chambered for 7.9 x 33 mm POLTE cartridges, into the Merz-designed casing and with about the same action as MKb 42 (H), which was first shot in anger at the Russian front (Cholm) in the summer 1942: Thirty-five rifles from the first prototype batch of 50 Haenel-designed guns were sent for the field test into the battlefield. They were welcomed by the users.

    Walther-designed prototype, MKb 42 "W" or "Construction A 115" had an annular gas piston sliding on the barrel, while MKb 42 (H) had a less expensive and more reliably functioning combination of a gas cylinder and piston mounted on the barrel. Single-shot (self loading or "semi-automatic") shooting of MKb 42 (W) was somewhat more accurate, but full-automatic or burst fire shooting of MKb 42 (H) was more steady, since the balance between recoil and a closing slam of the action was perfect..!

    For the MASCHINENPISTOLE 43 were picked details from both of these prototypes: Gas piston construction of MKb 42 (H) but firing mechanism with a separate hammer and "closed bolt" shooting from MKb 42 (W). The cartridge, now called as "PISTOLENPATRONE 43", was found to be accurate enough for shooting one by one. The burst fire was allowed to shoot in emergency only. The magazine of machine carbines was re-designed to become more reliable to feed and easier to load. In 1944 allowed ADOLF HITLER the mass-production of this entirely new kind of infantry firearms, and he re-christened it as a: "STURMGEWEHR 44"; an Assault Rifle. Production rate of StG 44 was too slow to alter the course of Second World War.

    That 7.9 x 33 mm cartridge was designed by POLTE Plant at Magdeburg in 1938 but idea of intermediate-sized carbine cartridge was a brainstorm of one Captain PIDERIT of Rifle Selection Commission from the tail year 1918 of 1st World War in Germany - if not idea of a Bohemian firearms designer KAREL KRNKA (pronounced as: "krynka", believed usually to be a typing error) and a Swiss professor HEBLER; co-designers of tubular rifle bullets with a range ca. five miles, and some other "too much, too early" inventions, more than a century ago. They actually made prototypes of "Miniature Rifle" and shortened cartridges with caliber as small as 5 mm (.20") in 1892 (SIC !), but the contemporary military authorities were not interested...

    The Imperial (and later Soviet) Russian scientist and firearms designer V.G. FYODOROV predicted also arrival of the shortened cartridges for "AVTOMATs" (= assault rifles). Fyodorov designed the first mass-produced one in 1916. The cartridge of existing Avtomat Model 1916 was Japanese 6.5 mm Arisaka with slightly reduced powder charge but a full-sized case. Fyodorov recommended on his books in late 1920s adoption of the bullet size 6.5 mm "if not even smaller" and a rimless or semi-rimmed case with a length shortened ca. 20 % ( to 40 mm). The Russian 5.45 x 40 mm cartridge was actually predicted 70 or more years ago !

    The Russian M-43 cartridge was NOT YET designed by the idea of "Old Guru" Vladimir G. Fyodorov. It was NOT design of MIKHAIL T. KALASHNIKOV, but two noted Soviet military cartridge designers YELISAROV (name often mis-spelt as "Elisarov") and BORIS SYEMIN. M.T. Kalashnikov designed just a family of firearms around already existing cartridge 7.62-mm M-43. It was NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

    Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945).

    Since 1938 the cartridge overall length was extended to 58 mm and as late as in 1942 the bullet diameter was reduced to the "Western" diameter .308"/ 7.83 mm, while the caliber designation became as 7.62 x 39 mm GeCo. German Third Reich was, however, just about adopting the 7.9 x 33 mm Polte cartridge, because of it's already standard size of bullet, rifle bore and rifling grooves, along with the case head and extractor groove dimensions similar to those of 7.9 x 57 mm Mauser case. GeCo had the production capacity of MANNLICHER-CARCANO cases, but all the other German producers of rifle caliber cartridges had the machinery adjusted for MAUSER case heads. Polte was biggest of them, having plants everywhere in The Reich, including the most remote Germany's provinces, like Poland.

    Bullet of GeCo cartridge M 35 weighed 9 grams, but it's dimensions were similar to projectile of Russian 7.62 mm M-43 cartridge. Russians were copied the German economy bullet S.m.E. (with an iron core) used in Pistolenpatrone 43 since the very start of mass-production. GeCo cartridges were peacetime products with lead-filled bullets. Those samples, stolen by some Comintern agent and delivered to Soviet-Russia, were made during 1934 - 38 era, since there were no more many communists at large (or even alive) in Germany since 1938. Overall length of cartridge tells also tales about pre-1938 design. O.A.L. of Russian M-43 cartridge is the same 55 millimeters.


    .....................

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    Continue from above.....

    GeCo 7.62 x 39 cartridges were designed exclusively for the abortive VOLLMER M 35 Maschinenkarabiner; the very first German assault rifle. There were actually three models of Vollmer machine carbines made since 1934 until 1938, but they were all too fine (read: expensive) arms for military issue, even for the special troops, with their all-machined and hand-fitted parts. Carbines had action with annular gas piston around the barrel, behind the muzzle, and too many delicate parts. Heeres Waffenamt (Weaponry Office of German armed forces) turned down the last, and most complicated, "A 35/III" carbine in 30th August 1938.

    Designer HEINRICH VOLLMER continued his efforts for design of submachine guns MP 38, MP 38/40 and MP 40 (often called incorrectly as "SCHMEISSER" submachine guns on the pulp novels). These guns were successful tools of warfare: Especially the MP 40 was inexpensive and easy to mass-produce. At least a million of them were made until the death of Germany in 1945.

    Back to the question re German influence on AK-47: There are some resemblances between AK and StG 44, but they are just superficial similarities. M. T. KALASHNIKOV copied details of many American (not German) firearms, including the breech bolt of U.S. M1 Carbine, a safety/selector lever from REMINGTON Model 8 hunting rifle and principle of trigger mechanism from BROWNING AUTO-5 shotgun, but many applications of these ideas are modified or improved by Kalashnikov himself and many major innovations are his designs, without known predecessors.

    I don't know, whether Hugo Schmeisser, who fell into the hands of Russians in 1945, was allowed to assist Kalashnikov in his design work. Schmeisser returned later to Suhl (then in the East-Germany) and he was allowed to continue his designer's work in the W.E.B. ERNST THAELMANN plant, which made especially air rifles under the original brand name "HAENEL". Many of these air guns were earlier designs of Hugo Schmeisser. They were well-known and popular in Finland too, decades ago, when I was a youngster.

    Actions of German assault rifle (with a tilting breech bolt) and that of AK-47 (with a rotating bolt) are, especially, quite different. So are also cocking and safety arrangements.


  11. #116

    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Found this excellent report:

    Origin of the 7.92x33 and 7,62x39 cartrigdes:

    [a few extracts]

    The Russian M-43 cartridge was.... NOT a copy of German 7.9 x 33 mm Pistolenpatrone 43 (= Polte Versuchspatrone 38), but cloned from earlier GECO cartridge, designed by Director WINTER of a firm GUSTAV GENSCHOW & Co. A.G. in 1934/35.

    Nobody know (or tell), how the Russian designers got those rare GeCo cartridges in their hands during the second year of Russo-German War, but they evidently had them! Too many coincidences are no more coincidences: The very same basic case (of Italian MANNLICHER-CARCANO cartridge). The very same case length: 39.5 mm. Similar 1 : 20 taper of cartridge body. Same head-to-shoulder distance and shoulder angle (the headspace, when combined). Until year 1938 the overall length of GeCo 7.75 x 39 mm cartridge was 55 millimeters and the bullet diameter was 7.92 mm, or similar to the Russian M-43 cartridge. (German caliber designation was based on the bore diameter. Rifling grooves of German VOLLMER MKb 35 bores were shallower than those of Soviet 7.62 x 39 mm firearms. First mass-produced one was SKS carbine, design of SERGEY G. SIMONOV in 1945).

    Since 1938 the cartridge overall length was extended to 58 mm and as late as in 1942 the bullet diameter was reduced to the "Western" diameter .308"/ 7.83 mm, while the caliber designation became as 7.62 x 39 mm GeCo.

    Bullet of GeCo cartridge M 35 weighed 9 grams, but it's dimensions were similar to projectile of Russian 7.62 mm M-43 cartridge. Russians were copied the German economy bullet S.m.E. (with an iron core) used in Pistolenpatrone 43 since the very start of mass-production. GeCo cartridges were peacetime products with lead-filled bullets. Those samples, stolen by some Comintern agent and delivered to Soviet-Russia, were made during 1934 - 38 era, since there were no more many communists at large (or even alive) in Germany since 1938. Overall length of cartridge tells also tales about pre-1938 design. O.A.L. of Russian M-43 cartridge is the same 55 millimeters.

    GeCo 7.62 x 39 cartridges were designed exclusively for the abortive VOLLMER M 35 Maschinenkarabiner; the very first German assault rifle.
    Sorry, but I won't believe that without proof, rather than just assertions.

    The case length for the 7.92 "Winter" cartridge in Labbett's book and in the ECRA (European Cartridge Research Association) database, the most comprehensive listing of service and experimental cartridges available, is 33.5mm compared with 39mm for the M1943 and the case diameter is 11.8+mm compared with 11.3mm, so everything about this round is different from the M1943.

    The suggestion that, in the middle of a war, a German firm should make the marginal change from 7.92mm (which everyone was geared up to make) to 7.62mm (which no-one was - that calibre wasn't used for any purpose in Germany) makes no sense. This is confirmed by the ECRA database, which does not list any German WW2 cartridge as having a 7.62mm calibre.

    There are several German 7.62mm rounds with case lengths of around 38-40mm, but they were all made over a few years around 1960 for experimental purposes: the Geco "Mittelpatrone" 7.62x38, the DAG 7.62x40 and a different DAG/IKW 7.62x40 design.

    So unless the author can come up with an actual example of the cartridge, or a factory drawing from that period, there is no evidence that there were any German pre-WW2 or WW2 cartridges with dimensions close to that of the M1943.

    It baffles me that people should still be trying to prove this (why?) when we have the evidence from the Russians themselves that the M1943 was directly inspired by examination of captured 7.92x33 ammunition, modified in calibre and shape to suit Russian manufacturing equipment. Designing new cartridge cases is not exactly rocket science!

    I don't know, whether Hugo Schmeisser, who fell into the hands of Russians in 1945, was allowed to assist Kalashnikov in his design work.
    I quote Russian author Maxim Popenker:

    "While it is possible that Hugo Schmeisser spent some time in Izhevsk, it absolutely had nothing to do with AK.

    Mikahail Kalashnikov developed his AK-46 at Red Army testing range near Moscow (some several thousands miles from Izhevsk), and co-designed AK-47 (which was entirely different beast) in Kovrov (also quite a distance from Izhevsk)

    In the course of AK-47 development Kalashnikov and Zaitsev ripped off quite a lot of other designs, including Browning, Holek and Bulkin (Kalashnikov's rival in 1946 and 47 trials), but they hardly borrowed a thing from Stg.44.

    The only thing that Schmeisser possibly could do at the time in Izhevsk was to transfer his knowledge on rapid production of large and complicated stamped parts, but it was all in vain (even if he did so) as in 1950-51 Izhevsk plant failed to produce original AK with stamped receivers and had to revert to machined receivers due to tremendous amount of rejected guns."
    Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    Sorry, but I won't believe that without proof, rather than just assertions.

    The case length for the 7.92 "Winter" cartridge in Labbett's book and in the ECRA (European Cartridge Research Association) database, the most comprehensive listing of service and experimental cartridges available, is 33.5mm compared with 39mm for the M1943 and the case diameter is 11.8+mm compared with 11.3mm, so everything about this round is different from the M1943.
    The article had a good portion of speculation, that is for sure, however I think is an interesting reading nevertheless. The finnish author ( now passed away) didnt like to much the soviets, so i think that influenced in his stile or writing.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    2 weird designs:

    7.92mm Spreewerke VG-2 Volkssturmgewehr semiauto caliber 7.92 kurz




    7.75mm Vollmer M-35 Automatic Karabiner, pre-war assault rifle prototipe.




  14. #119
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    Default Re: Semiautomatic & Assault rifles.

    If not mistaken the Vollmer M-35 Automatic Karabiner used a gas 'blow forward' where holds in the barrel blew the gas foreard delaying the action, which was connected to the shroud around the barrel, from going backward. Not unlike the HK P7 squeeze cocker. But I bet the weapon gets hot quick (the P7 sure does.)

    Deaf

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