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Thread: The Horten flying wings.

  1. #31
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    Letter devoted to Herr Horten, with some seriuos ortographics mistakes.


  2. #32
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    Oh great thing you did with the topic Panzerknacker, I like it.

    Yes the sad thing is that the Ho-229 flying wing is still awaiting the restoration work it so needed.

    I would have loved to talk to one of the Horten brothers.

    Many people spell the last name of the Horten's wrong and I must say I also did it myself at a time.

    The work the brothers did was great and to think that it was done at that time and even after the war they did a lot of work on aircraft even in Argentina.

    The pics of the Ho-229 in the NASM is very sad for me and I let a mag do a article on the aircraft here in SA, but they had a lot of their facts wrong and I did supply them with all of the original information and pictures of the aircraft and where it was today and in what state it is, but when I asked them why they gave the wrong info they said it is what their investigator gave them.

    Oh well that is live.

    Panzerknacker do you have any more info on some of the other projects the Horten's did during their designing time?


  3. #33
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  4. #34
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    Thanks mate.

    My mom dropped cool drink all over the PC and I thus had to get a new one so I was a bit in the dark for a while, but lucky for me the HDD did not get any damage.


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    Indeed excellent job, honorable gentlemen! You have succeeded in collecting every individual piece of information connected with the wartime work of the Horten brothers, which is absolutely remarkable and utterly unparalleled in the history of the German aircraft production.

    Horten brothers not only faithfully remained with the flying wing concept, but they also did that without any support from the large aircraft companies or from the RLM – furthermore, their most important construction and everlasting evidence of their true engineering ingenuity, the one and only Horten Ho IX, was a result of a completely unauthorized, even illegal actions!

    After the outbreak of war, Reimar Horten - the youngest brother – was assigned with the duties of a gliding instructor, and that verity practically had incapacitated him to work as a productive airplane designer. In November of 1941, however, General Ernest Udet committed suicide and Walter started to think how to liberate his brother of those duties, and how to ensure the recommencement of previously successfully committed designing activity.



    Horten V – true example of the clear, highly streamlined design

    Result of his intellectual reconsideration was one of the most important deceptions that took place in the Luftwaffe during the WW 2. Due to his position as an engineering consultant to the Inspector of fighter and ground attack aircraft at RLM, General Kurt-Bertram von Döring, he was able to do it with no questions asked. Within the Fighter Inspectorate under his control he therefore established a top secret unit, known as Sonderkommando 3 (the number referred to the Ho 3 glider built by Reimar) at Gottingen air base. The unit was so secret that only Walter and his brother knew about it!

    Of course, official documents mentioned the Sonderkommando 3, but there were numerous special units in the Luftwaffe, and it was unlikely that anybody should become interested in that one. However, the whole affair was awfully risky. If the verity that the Horten brothers are using Luftwaffe funds and facilities to do something on their own has turned out to be notorious, the fate of the designers would be highly unattractive: in those cases court-martial procedure was absolutely assured!

    Sonderkommando 3 was headed by Reimar, who was officially employed at the Inspectorate, but with no particular assignment. This gave him plenty of time and funds to accomplish previously envisaged plans. In August of 1940 Horten brothers have observed the first take-off of the rocket powered DFS 194, constructed by Alexander Lippisch at the German Institute for Sailplane Flight. Brothers were greatly impressed with the performance demonstrated by this wooden airplane, that flew with a speed not much less than the magic 1000 km/h. They agreed that it surely would be possible to break that barrier, and that their airplane should do that. Walter though of it in terms of a new airplane for the Luftwaffe, faster and better than all other designs, while Reimar wanted simply to beat Dr. Lippisch within the frantic engineering pursuit oriented toward braking the sound barrier.

    On the way back to Gottingen the brothers agreed that rocket propulsion, with its inherent limitations, was unsuitable for a regular combat airplane. They decided that the newly developed jet engines would be a better choice for their needs. It was Walter's duty to secure these engines, and they actually needed two such engines, because they considered that twin-engine layout was the better one.

    In early 1943 Walter took part in a meeting with Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, where the Reichsmarschall demanded increased fighter and fighter-bomber production without "duplication". According to his views, it was a frequent case that several companies were building various aircraft for the same use, and this practice was wrong. Göring said that he will not support such a nonsense, and the only thing he wants is one single airplane, capable to carry 1000 kg of bombs over 1000 km distance with 1000 km/h speed. Aforesaid airplane also should have been able to participate in a normal fighter combat activity. During the permanently heated discussion the Reichsmarschall declared that he would offer 500.000 Reichmarks to the first company able to offer such an aircraft.



    Horten Ho 229A-1 – artistic imagination of a post-WW2 line of business

    Walter Horten immediately contacted his brother, who then prepared a large, 20-page wide document, describing the potential airplane, with all subsequent performance calculations. Nominated as Horten Ho 9 fighter/bomber, aforesaid machine was designed to fulfill all previously highlighted requirements, including the exploitation of non-strategic materials in serial production of the airplane. Horten brothers attached general arrangement drawings, even an artist's impressions of the Ho 9 in flight. Documentation was sent to Generalmajor Ullrich Diesing, the head of the RLM’s planning office, who subsequently sent copies to individual RLM officials and to the DFS for additional evaluation. Reason for all this was Diesing’s unreadiness toward eventual enragement of the Reichsmarschall, and his personal inclination toward additional professional backup of the proposal, before official presentation to the Reichsmarschall Göring. The procedure took half a year.

    In August of 1943 the RLM considered the Ho 9 project a very appealing one, and the designers themselves were personally invited by Göring to the meeting that took place at the holiday-residence of the Reichsmarschall - Karinhall. Goring was surprised with the youthful age of his guests (Reimar was 28 years old, and Walter 30). He asked numerous questions about their previous achievements and the roots of their design competence at such young age. When Reimar presented the material about calculated performance, useful load, fuel consumption… etc, and added that the airplane would be built mainly of wood, the Reichsmarschall apparently sprung up from his chair and shouted "do it!".

    After that he called for Erhard Milch and ordered him to give the Hortens 500.000 RM for the development of the Ho 9. When Milch asked with whom the contract is to be signed, Walter asked for one day of delay, after which he met Milch again - this time as a representative of Horten Flugzeugbau GmbH!

    The rest is history.

    This story represents abbreviation of the original chapter published in a book "German Air Projects 1935-1945, vol. II – Red series" by Marek Ryś, Mushroom Model Publications, Sandomierz, 2004.
    Ire Fortiter Quo Nemo Ante Iit!

  6. #36
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    The Horten brothers had a great idea of flying wings. They did not go to any school to be able to build or design these aircraft, but they had success with the aircraft they build. I would just like to see if someone can build a replica of the Ho-229 and fly it to see how great it is.


  7. #37
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    Just a tiny bibliographic remark, my dear Mr. HG: Although only a few details regarding formal education of Horten brothers are currently available, it is known that they actually have been raised in a highly academic atmosphere - their father, late Prof. Dr. Max Horten, was renowned professor of oriental sciences and cultures at the university of Bonn.

    Furthermore, according to "Warplanes of the Third Reich", Doubleday and Co., 1970, they actually have had a brief stint at the Technical University in Bonn back in 1938, before they returned to the Luftwaffe.

    After World War II, Dr. Reimar Horten had acquired his academic degree at the University of Bonn in 1946, and later went away to the Republic of Argentina, where he worked as a designer in the DINFIA (National Directory of Aeronautical Construction and Investigation, and also labored together with Dr. Ing. Kurt Tank.
    Ire Fortiter Quo Nemo Ante Iit!

  8. #38
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    I understand what you mean mate, but I meant they did not have any education in designing aircraft. It is a shame that the Horten brothers did not have a greater impact after the war.

    You sure do know a lot about the Horten brothers. I saw the NASM in Washington DC has all the interview tapes that was done with the Horten brothers about all of their work, but most of it is in German.


  9. #39
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    Didnt they go to Argentina after the war and design planes similar to that of the hortem bombers?

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    Default Re: The Horten flying wings.

    Anybody know why the 229 in storage in USA is not assembled?!

    (That fact is the weirdest thing concerned with aviation ever)

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    Default Re: The Horten flying wings.

    Quote Originally Posted by snebold View Post
    Anybody know why the 229 in storage in USA is not assembled?!

    (That fact is the weirdest thing concerned with aviation ever)
    The V3 was sent to the United States by ship, along with other captured aircraft, and finally ended up in the H. H. "Hap" Arnold collection of the Air Force Technical Museum. The all-wing aircraft was to have been brought to flying status at Park Ridge, Illinois, but budget cuts in the late forties and early fifties brought these plans to an end. The V3 was handed over to the present-day National Air and Space Museum (NASM) in Washington D.C.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: The Horten flying wings.

    I just wondering, why doesnt the USAAF adopt nurflugel designs? They have the B-2 and F117(but thats just kind-of) Russia has the Mig skat but thats still prototype.

  13. #43
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    Maj Schmidt wrote: "I just wondering, why doesnt the USAAF adopt nurflugel designs? They have the B-2 and F117(but thats just kind-of) Russia has the Mig skat but thats still prototype."

    The short answer is it did, and technically the US designes preceded the Horten/Luftwaffe design.

    I wasted a bunch of time looking for a old magazine artical of the 1970s. Heres a series of websites, severalof wich seem to have been drawn straight from that artical.

    Note that the Northrup version reaches back to the 1920s, and his pure wing design was on paper in the 1930s. None of this has been classified & there have been many magazine articals on it since I was a teenager, maybe even earlier. But, folks act like they have never heard of Northrups designs..

    the first Northrop flying wing
    Noted f or its multi-cellular construction, Northrop's 1929 Flying wing, with its twin booms and tail structure

    http://www.century-of-flight.net/Avi...s/northrop.htm - 26k -

    Your Zagi Flying Wing History
    Jack Northrop and the Flying Wing, A History of Jack Northrop's Visionary Aircraft ...

    www.yourzagi.com/history.htm - 39k - Cached - Similar pages


    Clipped Wings: The Death of Jack Northrop's Flying Wing Bombers
    File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
    Northrop Flying Wing bombers, canceled by the Air Force more than 50 years .
    www.dau.mil/pubs/arq/2001arq/Baker.pdf


    Northrop's flying-wing airliner
    As early as 1948, Jack Northrop hoped to adapt his Flying Wing bomber as the world's sleekest airliner.

    www.warbirdforum.com/paxwing.htm - 6k - Cached - Similar pages


    Northrop flying wing bombers
    this is a rare photo of nine Northrop Flying Wing Bombers.

    http://www.century-of-flight.freeola...%20bombers.htm - 51k


    The last of Jack Northrop's flying wings, the YRB-9A, flew in 1951.

    http://www.centennialofflight.gov/es...ern/Aero41.htm - 23k -
    Last edited by Carl Schwamberger; 03-30-2008 at 02:47 AM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: The Horten flying wings.

    I mean modern designs.....

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    Default Re: The Horten flying wings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Walter Schmidt View Post
    I mean modern designs.....
    Those web sites dont go into a lot of depth, but if you read through carefully you will see some hints. One concerned a growing problem with stability, which re emerged in the F117 & B2 design. Another connects to the prototypes that were contemporaty to the YB49. The B47 & B52 are refered to directly, tho the specifications for more advanced supersonic bombers such as the eventual B58 should be considered.

    Note that the B2 design has its roots in the early 1970s. Barely a twenty year gap between the end of the YB49 the earlest know date of the B2 specs known to me. And, keep in mind I dont know what other secret research & specs or test models there may have been between 1955 & 1975.
    Last edited by Carl Schwamberger; 03-30-2008 at 02:08 PM.

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