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USS Liberty - thread split out
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    Default USS Liberty - thread split out

    <note by pdf27 - split out of the Vietnam thread to prevent it going too off-topic>

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I have to tell you about something that isn’t at all well known.

    If you examine some very select documents in a little known and carefully guarded section of the American national archives you'll find that the Zionist conspiracy goes far deeper than you think.

    In 1960, in probably its only accurate prediction about anything important, the CIA predicted the 1967 Six Day War in Israel, although it thought it would be a Sixty Day War, give or take a week.

    Mossad actually got hold of this CIA assessment but, due to the inferior quality of photostat machines at the time, when the copies were received in Tel Aviv a fault in copying made it seem that America's superior intelligence and military assessment was working on a Six Day War.

    Tel Aviv duly altered its plans to make it a Six Day War, to fit in with the American support they expected.

    However, contrary to Tel Aviv's hopes, the CIA assessment provoked panic in both Democratic and Republican circles as neither wanted America to be put into a position where it had to put its forces onto the ground and water and into the air beside the Israelis.

    The predominantly Protestant and Catholic Republican and Democratic voters in that era would not support American boys dying for belligerent and ungrateful Jews in another far away land only a couple of decades after saving them the last time, and putting Americans' access to Arab oil at risk just when they were really starting to enjoy the gasoline guzzling joys of huge cars as they approached the peak of post-war prosperity.

    Not to mention the problems which could be expected from the large number of influential and rabidly anti-Semitic Nazi rocket scientists, physicists, and so on who had by then become the darlings of the American political and military/industrial establishments and who had the ears of American military and political leaders.

    Yet neither the Democrats or Republicans could afford not to put American forces in beside Israel when the predicted 1967 war occurred, as both were dependent upon the domestic Jewish lobby for their political survival.

    After turbulent and lengthy secret meetings held deep in Cheyenne Mountain 1960 - 63, many attended by the President and his military chiefs, both parties agreed that the solution to their mutual problem was to put America into a military position where it could not possibly be expected to divert forces to Israel in 1967.

    Vietnam conveniently poked its head up, and the rest is history.

    The CIA had in fact been infiltrated by Mossad by the mid-1950's by the Hoffmans and other fifth columnists who were conspiring to bring America into the Zionists' planned 1967 war.

    Hoffman's involvement is clear from his attempts to avoid responsibility for his carelessly exultant 1967 polemic "**** the System" which used allegorical language about bleeding America dry to satisfy a Jew’s inexhaustible desires to conceal his, and the Zionists', joy at getting America to come to Israel's aid at, as usual, no cost to the exploitative Jews. http://www.totse.com/en/politics/ana...tem172243.html

    After being reprimanded by Tel Aviv for this careless action, Hoffman attempted to put the CIA etc off the scent by publishing "More than you ever wanted to know about nuclear waste transports", http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm...endid=89818259 a none too subtle warning to any nation that chose to resist the Zionists and, as they thought, their powerful American friends who in fact were bogging America down in Vietnam to avoid exactly that nuclear confrontation with the Arabs, most of whom didn't even have bows and arrows and, if they did, didn‘t know which way to point them.

    By 1963 Mossad had successfully persuaded the CIA of America's problems when the planned 1967 war occurred and, unintentionally, had encouraged America to get involved in Vietnam to avoid what Mossad wanted, being direct involvement in the Six Day War.

    Paradoxically, by unintentionally diverting America from Israel to Vietnam, Mossad also unwittingly enlisted America to support the Zionist leadership’s secret long term alternative plan to reshape Israel to enable it to survive.

    The desire to reshape Israel was based on the fact that Israel is a bit of desert in a more or less geometric shape while Vietnam is a lot of fertile land in a rather more rounded shape, reminiscent of the pregnant Jewish earth mother which ensures the survival of the Jews whatever their travails.

    Mossad was backing both horses. If America fought beside Israel in the inevitable war in 1967, Israel had to win and the wandering Jews could stop wandering. If America won in Vietnam after expelling the Catholics and Buddhists, then the more fertile and better shaped land would be open to the Jews who could wander over there from Israel.

    So, even if it was exactly the opposite of what it was trying to achieve, Mossad persuaded the Democrats and the Republicans that it was in America's interests to commit all its forces to Vietnam, to bleed itself dry under the draft, so that nothing would be left to go to Israel.

    America fell for it.

    Which is how the Jews were responsible for the American defeat in Vietnam.



    Caveat emptor.
    Thank you very much Rising Sun.
    It seem you,ve really understood what i mean
    I knew about the zionist attempts to involve the USA into the Arab's war in the 1967.
    But it were not only the political intrigues but and the open military strikes
    Did you ever hear about attack of american USS ship "Liberty" in 8 june of 1967 that was unfair fired on by the Israel fighters and ships?
    The James Ennes on of the officer of Liberty has published the book (Ennes, J. (1979). Assault On The Liberty. New York: Random House.) in 1979 where he clearly proved that this provocations attack was PLANNED and jews knew - this is american ship.
    The resault of this dastard attack - the 22 killed american sailors and many were wondered.
    The political motive of Israel - represent this attack as the "Egyptian attack". In this case the USA immediatelly joining the war beside Israel.
    However this ship survived and the commander was later awarded with the medal of Congress honnor.
    And one moment.
    When the Liberty call for the help by radio - the group of US fighter take off to help them, however by the ORDER of the US president (Lincoln)- were turned backward!!!!
    Did you ever hear ot this cynical political provocation?
    This is quite interesting situation -
    While the one Hoffman try to stop the "unfair Vietnam war" meanwhile his friends in Isreal and Washington involved the USA in new war. That's nice tactic.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by pdf27; 08-13-2007 at 03:04 AM. Reason: Threads split - explanation at top

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Did you ever hear about attack of american USS ship "Liberty" in 8 june of 1967 that was unfair fired on by the Israel fighters and ships?
    Yes. I found out about it a couple of years ago from a newspaper article, and looked into it. Never heard of it before that.

    There's a lot of good stuff on the internet about it, especially this site
    http://www.ussliberty.org/

    From what I've read, the times and events just aren't consistent with anything but a deliberate attack by Israel.

    America has chosen not to make an issue of it for whatever reason. I have a terrible feeling you're going to offer some reasons which go to the perfidious Jews, in which case you'd better start another thread.

    As for the Liberty crew, a lot of them remain rightly pissed off by America's inaction.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 08-10-2007 at 05:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Thank you very much Rising Sun.
    It seem you,ve really understood what i mean
    I knew about the zionist attempts to involve the USA into the Arab's war in the 1967.
    But it were not only the political intrigues but and the open military strikes
    Did you ever hear about attack of american USS ship "Liberty" in 8 june of 1967 that was unfair fired on by the Israel fighters and ships?
    The James Ennes on of the officer of Liberty has published the book (Ennes, J. (1979). Assault On The Liberty. New York: Random House.) in 1979 where he clearly proved that this provocations attack was PLANNED and jews knew - this is american ship.
    The resault of this dastard attack - the 22 killed american sailors and many were wondered.
    The political motive of Israel - represent this attack as the "Egyptian attack". In this case the USA immediatelly joining the war beside Israel.
    However this ship survived and the commander was later awarded with the medal of Congress honnor.
    And one moment.
    When the Liberty call for the help by radio - the group of US fighter take off to help them, however by the ORDER of the US president (Lincoln)- were turned backward!!!!
    Did you ever hear ot this cynical political provocation?
    This is quite interesting situation -
    While the one Hoffman try to stop the "unfair Vietnam war" meanwhile his friends in Isreal and Washington involved the USA in new war. That's nice tactic.

    Cheers.
    Yes. The attack on the USS Liberty was nothing but shear aggression, and a cynical and ruthless effort by the IDF to blind US intelligence to its intentions in the Six-Day War. The Israelis claim that they thought it was an Egyptian frigate, which beLIEs the fact that the Liberty was flying an over-sized 'Old Glory' (US colors) and that it would have been obviously apparent to any Israeli air force pilots that this ship had little in the way of any armament.

    By the way, it's claimed by the survivors that Israeli gunboats came by after the ship was effectively sunk, and started shooting at the survivors, and their complete slaughter was only prevented by the arrival of US carrier aircraft...

    But, it has absolutely nothing to do with Vietnam, the US peace movement, nor Hoffman - who was an American, not an Israeli.

    And it should be noted that one of the victims in the incident, and ex-sailor now turned spokesman for the US Liberty crewmen, is himself Jewish, and wears his Star of David prominently every time he denounces the attack and the Israeli gov't...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 08-10-2007 at 10:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Yes. The attack on the USS Liberty was nothing but shear aggression, and a cynical and ruthless effort by the IDF to blind US intelligence to its intentions in the Six-Day War. The Israelis claim that they thought it was an Egyptian frigate, which beLIEs the fact that the Liberty was flying an over-sized 'Old Glory' (US colors) and that it would have been obviously apparent to any Israeli air force pilots that this ship had little in the way of any armament.

    By the way, it's claimed by the survivors that Israeli gunboats came by after the ship was effectively sunk, and started shooting at the survivors, and their complete slaughter was only prevented by the arrival of US carrier aircraft...
    This was not ONLY the pure agression Nicki.
    This was the PROVOCATION with obvious political aims - to involve the USA to the war.
    And the fact that the pro-jewish mass media COULD COVER IT FOR A LONG TIME ( or keep the silence) - just prove the fact that in the USA the press is not do liberal as could to assert some of domestic patriots
    Besides you should noticed : If the zionists were able to cynically shoted the american crew( as i read they shoted even the wounded peoples , and who try to help the wounded)
    They forget about the any rules of the war.
    So if the zionist were able to plann and realised ( just the could not sunk the Liberty) the cynical provocation in 1968 - What for they able nowadays.
    But, it has absolutely nothing to do with Vietnam, the US peace movement, nor Hoffman - who was an American, not an Israeli.
    It's obviously Nick you do not understand the sence of Zionist. Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism).
    According this rule the any zionists must support the any actions that could help the Israel.
    According to the Naum Goldman ( the president of Jewish congress) "The any jew - is the FIRSTLY jew, and only then he is the American,British, Germans, Russian and ets."
    So if you do not see the thin connection between the Hoffman and other - this does mean this is not exsisted.
    And it should be noted that one of the victims in the incident, and ex-sailor now turned spokesman for the US Liberty crewmen, is himself Jewish, and wears his Star of David prominently every time he denounces the attack and the Israeli gov't...
    Has the possible death of one jews- men of crew Liberty - stop the zionists fanatics who ready to do everything "to save the israel". Do not be the naive my friend.

    Cheers.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    Yes. The attack on the USS Liberty was nothing but shear aggression, and a cynical and ruthless effort by the IDF to blind US intelligence to its intentions in the Six-Day War. The Israelis claim that they thought it was an Egyptian frigate, which beLIEs the fact that the Liberty was flying an over-sized 'Old Glory' (US colors) and that it would have been obviously apparent to any Israeli air force pilots that this ship had little in the way of any armament.
    Ummm... personally, I don't think it was. The problem all of you are having is that you can't conceive that any competent military force would have made such an attack by accident, and so are assuming that the Israelis must have been doing it deliberately.
    The problem with this is that the Israeli forces of the time were really, really incompetent - even on land. Had they been fighting anyone but the Arabs Israel would have been wiped out decades ago, and even today they really aren't as good as they're cracked up to be.

    A particularly good essay on the incident can be found here. A couple of telling quotes from the essay:

    At eleven o'clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn't need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.
    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competence and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn't do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive.
    And most telling of all...
    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals - cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak.
    It should be noted here that Udi Erell had been the commander of the squadron of 3 MTBs which had attacked the Liberty, and was also the son of the chief of staff of the Israel navy. In the six years since the incident, he had been demoted quite a long way. There's more to it than that though - the fact that the whole crew were asleep at sea close to the enemy coast in the middle of a war is not indicative of a competent navy. As a matter of fact it isn't something you would expect a navy in a third world sh*thole to be dumb enough to do either - yet here is the Israeli navy doing it. They really aren't anywhere near as good as they're cracked up to be, which in turn makes the theory that it was sheer incompetence which caused the attack plausible.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    The problem with this is that the Israeli forces of the time were really, really incompetent - even on land.
    Incompetent...?!
    pdf they need to be the FULL IDIOTS to attack for a whole HOUR the Ship with the BIG AMERICAN FLAG on board and recieving the radio-call in English form Liberty.
    The Israeli government, the AntiDefamation League, and
    certain notorious apologists for Israel insist that the attack was
    a tragic accident and that the US government accepts that assertion.
    Not so. Virtually every knowledgeable American official with
    the lone exception of Robert McNamara is on public record
    calling the attack deliberate and the Israeli story untrue.
    Here are a few of those American leaders.


    "I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
    -- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk



    "...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
    -- CIA Director Richard Helms



    "To me, the picture thus far presents the distinct possibility that the Israelis knew that the Liberty might be their target and attacked anyway, either through confusion in Command and Control or through deliberate disregard of instructions on the part of subordinates."
    -- CIA Deputy Director Admiral Rufus Taylor



    "I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
    -- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby



    ". . . the commander of the Sixth Fleet was informed by the Washington Intelligence Apparatus that it had evidence that the Liberty was going to be attacked and to provide protection for it. That message was never really acted upon, and the ship was dead in the water when it was hit. So the end result was no accident."
    -- Raymond Tate, Deputy Assistant SecNav and Deputy Director, NSA, "Worldwide C3I and Telecommunications" (1980, pp. 25-47)

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    There's more to it than that though - the fact that the whole crew were asleep at sea close to the enemy coast in the middle of a war is not indicative of a competent navy. .
    Oh sure pdf now the picture is clear..
    Just imagine the Isreal did not noticed the Amrivcan flag on Liberty coz ... they all were sleeping.
    However this fact did not BOTHER them to drop the napalm bombs with the great precision and shoted the wounded sailors from the firghter gun.
    Also the Isrealy Torpedo ships crew were sleepping and from THIRD torpedos ONLY one has reached the Liberty.
    Thanks for god they all were sleeping- just imagine what could be if they were suddenly wake up
    I doubt the Liberty could come back to the base in this way

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Incompetent...?!
    pdf they need to be the FULL IDIOTS to attack for a whole HOUR the Ship with the BIG AMERICAN FLAG on board and recieving the radio-call in English form Liberty.
    Dumber things have happened during wartime. Typical case of "shoot first ask questions later!"

    Weather is was intentional or not is hard to say for sure. However if it was intentional then I dont see the rewards of the attack.

    101st Airborne

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Sandworm View Post
    However if it was intentional then I dont see the rewards of the attack.
    Rewards fo what Gen?
    Rewards must be USA joining the war - and they has reached it finaly
    However losed the attack - they was not capable to sink the Liberty. The ship survived and caused the problems for Israel
    No rewards for "losers"

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Incompetent...?!
    pdf they need to be the FULL IDIOTS to attack for a whole HOUR the Ship with the BIG AMERICAN FLAG on board and recieving the radio-call in English form Liberty.
    Yep, agreed. They were, and that essay I posted the link to does a good job of demonstrating it.
    Incidentally, the hour of the attack should really be treated as two much shorter attacks. In another demonstration of Israeli incompetence at the time, when the attacking aircraft finally realised they were attacking Americans the torpedo boats still hadn't attacked yet. However, the Israeli pilots could only talk to their own air force base not to the torpedo boats - and the system for passing messages on was so slow that the torpedo boats didn't get the message until after they had attacked and worked it out for themselves.
    The Israelis were essentially trying to fight a modern war with a WW2-surplus communications system minus the training and procedures that made that communications system work during WW2. Unsurprisingly it was a fiasco and only the fact that the Arabs were even more incompetent saved the Israelis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan
    Just imagine the Isreal did not noticed the Amrivcan flag on Liberty coz ... they all were sleeping.
    However this fact did not BOTHER them to drop the napalm bombs with the great precision and shoted the wounded sailors from the firghter gun.
    You're missing the point. Falling asleep on duty is unforgivable - until quite recently most armies considered it a death-penalty offence, and rightly so. I would be very, very angry at any of the recruits in my Battalion were they to do so on their first weekend in the field - yet here is the ENTIRE CREW of an Israeli fast attack craft doing so in wartime. If they can't get what has to be about the most basic concept of all in military life right, what makes you think that they are competent at ship recognition (much, much harder).
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Sandworm View Post
    Dumber things have happened during wartime. Typical case of "shoot first ask questions later!"

    Weather is was intentional or not is hard to say for sure. However if it was intentional then I dont see the rewards of the attack.
    Liberty was an electronic eavesdropper, close to the Israeli coast as a result of stuff ups with radio messages ordering it to withdraw.

    At the time the Israelis attacked it they were about to go into the Golan Heights while they were also massacring Egyptian POW's at Al (or El) Arish. One view is that they didn't want their activities on one or both of these fronts discovered.

    They sure as hell knew it wasn't the Egyptian horse carrier they later claimed to have mistaken it for.

    I don't have any doubt it was a deliberate attack or, more accurately, series of attacks.

    We'll probably never know the reasons because the Israelis have lied about it, with transparently stupid lies, since the event and America has covered it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    It's obviously Nick you do not understand the sence of Zionist. Zionism is an international political movement that supports a homeland for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism).
    According this rule the any zionists must support the any actions that could help the Israel.
    That's about as accurate as saying that communism is the same everywhere.

    There were different varieties of Zionism, not all of which necessarily focused on Israel as a homeland.

    One version in the 1930's, which came reasonably close to success, was for a Jewish homeland to be established in north-west Australia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    That's about as accurate as saying that communism is the same everywhere.

    There were different varieties of Zionism, not all of which necessarily focused on Israel as a homeland.

    One version in the 1930's, which came reasonably close to success, was for a Jewish homeland to be established in north-west Australia.
    Exactly.
    And did you ever know Rising Sun that ALL the first bolshevics were at the same time fierced Zionists?
    But they just planned to invide not the Australia- but the Birobidgan - the area in the Russian far East
    Last edited by Chevan; 08-13-2007 at 06:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    Exactly.
    And did you ever know Rising Sun that ALL the first bolshevics were at the same time fierced Zionists?
    But they just planned to invide not the Australia- but the Birobidgan - the area in the Russian far East
    They weren't going to invade.

    The plan was to come in as migrants. There was a lot of enthusiasim in Australia for the idea.

    You'll be pleased to know that the leader of the group was a Bolshevik, Isaac Steinberg, the first People's Commissar for Justice after the Russian Revolution.

    http://workers.labor.net.au/136/c_hi...imberleys.html

    http://abc.net.au/rn/ark/stories/2006/1534158.htm

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    Back to the topic guys.
    If the Attack of Liberty was the "mistaken" - had the somebody in the Israel army carry the crime punishments for the death of the 34 american soldiers?
    And was the responsible Isreal military staff judged for this crime?
    What was the sentence?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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