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Thread: Shotguns?

  1. #1

    Default Shotguns?

    Although I see soldiers in video games carry combat shotguns, I seriously doubt if Americans actually carried them into combat during the second world war. Can someone clear this up for me?

  2. #2
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    I doubt that they were used in the ETO. The USMC might have found them advantageous in the PTO. Clearing caves, trenches ....... etc.

    Here are 3 links that might help you in your pursuit!

    http://www.answers.com/topic/ww2marineshotgun-jpg

    http://www.wwiiguns.com/store/product_details.php?p=224

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun

    101st Airborne

  3. #3

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    What I usually see in games is the Winchester M1912 shotgun.

    Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure how shotguns would be useful in Europe since the battles were either on flat planes (rifles are ideal) or in urban (here, you may want an SMG) settings. In jungles and caves, a shotgun would make sense.
    Last edited by bwing55543; 07-02-2007 at 07:25 PM.

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    A gent I knew, veteran of WWII, was an armorer and sniper in North Africa and Europe. He used a shotgun extensively for clearing houses in Europe, preferring it to the Thompson.

    JT

  5. #5
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    Shotguns have their advantages and disadvantages in all areas of conflict.

    They are generally short range weapons, but highly destructive.

    In jungles care has to be taken with the cartriges that may allow water in, and they actually don't penetrate the foliage that well.

    In fibua they are handy for taking off doors. Everything else can be conducted by rifle or grenade.

    They seem to pop up in games to give the players a different weapon to choose from.

    They were used in Vietnam, but I don't recall them being a blinding success, nor in any other theatre.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

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    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobtowne View Post
    A gent I knew, veteran of WWII, was an armorer and sniper in North Africa and Europe. He used a shotgun extensively for clearing houses in Europe, preferring it to the Thompson.

    JT
    That is all I need thanks.

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    the shotgun was used primarily as a guard weapon in rear areas,for POW's and such in most of the ETO and MTO.the army frowned on their use for anything else since their use is against the geneva convention...though some commanders didn't have a problem looking the other way for the few who did use them in the field.macarthur was one who addamantly opposed their use in units under his command.....the paper rounds were a real problem in the field though and had to really be babied,as has been noted..the USMC used them on a much larger scale ,especially since they were a standard issue item for ship's landing parties before the war.during several landing in the palaus and marianas islands there were whole "assault teams" who were outfitted with nothing but thompsons,shotguns,flamethrowers,massive amounts of grenades and satchel charges whose whole purpose was to clear trenches and bunkers...
    the marine pictured in the first link is probably a member of one of these teams given the shotgun and the satchel charge he is carrying...
    Last edited by savoy6; 07-05-2007 at 07:17 AM.

  8. #8
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    Shot guns are neither prohibited by the Geneva (which deals with treatment of civilians and prisoners of war) or Hague (dealing with the conduct of war) conventions.
    1884 electric cartridge. Look similar to anything?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1000ydstare View Post
    They were used in Vietnam, but I don't recall them being a blinding success ....
    Oh, Man!

    Like ... Where were you? Then?

    Like ... I mean ... Like, it was just totally amazing!

    Like ... Wow!

    Like, Man, the shottie was a cool pipe in Nam. You know what I mean?

    Like, nobody got blind like on juice, or wasted like on powder, or hurt like with a needle, or anything. Just mellow.

    Too cool, Man.

    Chill out, Baby, and suck deep on this for a shottie cone stone.

    [The foregoing has been heavily edited in a forlorn attempt to render it into recognisable English.]

    American taxes at work in Viet Nam!

    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/44435/...m_shotgun_fun/

    Edit: Notice how most of those pussies don't inhale? They could all, like Bill Clinton, become president.

    Notice also how many rounds are ejected for each ejection action? Not a very safe weapon, or not a very safe operator. If this is representative of the quality of weapons training or the weapons, they are definitely safer using the gun as a pipe.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 07-05-2007 at 08:32 AM.

  10. #10
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    More seriously, here's some stuff on shotguns in WWII and Vietnam which, from my knowledge, rather overstates the significance and use of shotguns in both wars. Scouts (or point man in US) in jungle were more likely to be armed with SMG's than shotguns for the obvious advantage that 10 heavyish rounds fired at a fleeting figure at short range have a better chance of hitting it than one fired in the same time with, depending upon range, a wider spread than a rifled round but not all that wide and with limited penetration.

    In practice, many, probably most, scouts were stuck with standard infantry rifles in both wars. It's not like everybody got to go down to some big gun shop run by a benevolent army concerned only with their wants and pick their preferred weapon before consenting to perform their duty as scout.

    At the outbreak of World War II, the Army was woefully short of the number of shotguns needed for jungle and house-to-house fighting. Shotguns were procured in great numbers and from multiple firearms manufacturers. As a result, there was no standard shotgun during the War [a situation that was not rectified for many decades thereafter]. The shotgun was the secondary weapon of choice in the jungles of New Guinea. In the European theater, it was widely used in the house-to-house fighting across France. The shotgun had one major deficiency: it forced the soldier to carry two weapons -- the rifle (for long-range shots) and the shotgun. This was roughly 18 pounds of weapons. The result was that usually one man in the squad was assigned to carry the shotgun, sacrificing the longer-range fire of the M-1 rifle.

    With the formation of the Military Police Corps in 1943, the shotgun was used to guard prisoners and supply lines in the extended rear areas and lines of communication back to the continental United States. Its capabilities were ideal for the professional law enforcement missions taken on during the war.

    During the post-World War II era, numerous attempts (over a fifty-year period) were made to develop a semiautomatic combat shotgun that was reliable under combat conditions and firing all varieties of ammunition. None proved to be entirely satisfactory, and the American infantryman and military policeman fought in Korea and Vietnam with pump-action shotguns that re-validated their effectiveness. In Vietnam, the pump-action combat shotgun was the weapon of choice for point men and dog handlers on combat patrols. Specially modified shotguns were developed to engage and neutralize the North Vietnamese guard force during the unsuccessful 1970 Son Tay raid that attempted to free American prisoners of war located deep inside North Vietnam.
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...nd/shotgun.htm

    In nearly every conflict in American history that soldiers marched off to war, some packed their shotguns. The Shotgun proved itself in the in jungle warfare during WWII when American soldiers involved in savage battles with the Japanese on islands throughout the Pacific used the weapon. After WWII, British soldiers involved in the counter-insurgency battles in Malaya also found shotguns effective. In-country the Shotgun was used by US Army, Helicopter crewmen, Brown Water Navy, Marines, Air Force, ARVN and even the VC! The weapon was not particularly favored by Australians forces.
    Shotguns are essentially a close range weapon making it ideal for Vietnam. Most encounters in Vietnam and in most guerrilla wars averaged around less than 75 yards. Your typical shotgun has an effective range of 50 yards. For the lone individual assigned point who slowly moving along in the boonies pausing occasionally the shotgun gave him a firepower advantage against in enemy that could appear. One shot would win the day in these situations and it was then that a shotgun that mattered.
    The tunnel rats also put shotguns to good use. Sgt. Flo Riviera was able to get a 4-gauge riot shotgun approved; "real handy that four-gauge, the noise blew your eardrums out but if there was anything at all infront of you, you hit it." With testimony like that it's easy to see why the Tunnel Rats grudgingly nicknamed their shotguns "Cannons." In the tight underground passages the weapon was ALWAYS effective, many a NLF soldier learned this the hard way.
    Outside the jungle, shotguns were also effective for perimeter protection at airstrips, FSBs, and other strategic locations. Here the shotgun's lack of range was not a problem. Charging NLF/PAVN proved an easy target for buckshot. At night the shotgun's wide spread also helped "find" enemy who were hidden. Shotguns were also came in handy in the infrequently occurring urban battles of the war.
    Shotgun's received a mixed response from the ARVN. The stout ARVN soldier found the shotgun to be rather cumbersome and to large to sustain a high rate of fire. The NLF scavenged and stole everything from empty C-ration cans to entire tanks during the war. Thus, they eventually acquired a few shotguns. A double-barreled shotgun encountered in 1968 had several few modifications. It was sawed-off and had been fitted with the "paratrooper-style" folding stock of a US M1 Carbine. The VC also manufactured crude shotguns out of sections of pipe.
    A wide variety of Shotguns were used in Vietnam by US forces, due to the large number of shotguns grunts would have shipped to them from home. A shotgun from home gave a grunt an unparalleled familiarity with his weapon and thus a tactical edge. The most common shotgun was Remington 870; a 12-gauge pump action weapon, still in production today. It got off to a rocky start in Vietnam. The shells initially issued contained 8 "00 buck" pellets. A weapon with #4 buck (41 pellets) would've been more useful. Later as things improved a special adapter was added to help focus the spray of pellets. Other shotguns used included the Winchester Model 12, Steven's 12-gauge and the Ithaca Mod. 37 all pump actions.
    http://www.geocities.com/commande1/vnshotguns.html

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Stoat View Post
    Shot guns are neither prohibited by the Geneva (which deals with treatment of civilians and prisoners of war) or Hague (dealing with the conduct of war) conventions.
    IIRC the US had some doubts about whether they were legal or not during WW1. It didn't stop them using them, but they were officially called "trench rifles" to avoid problems.
    Could it be something to do with the St Petersburg Declaration trying to ban weapons capable of causing "excessive injury"?
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    If you had to I would want to use this one...

    Pancor Jackhammer

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancor_Jackhammer

    or the SPAS-15

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPAS-15

    The search for a truely universal weapon goes on.

    The US, and Russians tried a few varients such as...


    AKM with GP-25 40mm underbarrel grenade launcher


    Remington 870MCS as an "Auxiliary weapon", mounted under the M4A1carbine, to form so called Masterkey system

    I have seen an AK-47 fitted with a single shot shotgun underneath the barrel. Loading was a bit hard, due to the mag haveing to be removed!!!!

    Can't find any pics or info, was it a Yugoslavian special?
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




    Have you seen any combat?

    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



  13. #13
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    Now apparently going back tooooo....

    After successfully testing a nine pound shotgun attachment (that went under the barrel of an M-16) in Afghanistan late last year, the army is shipping a new, and lighter, weapon of the same type to Afghanistan. The LSS (Lightweight Shotgun System) weighs less than three pounds ( 2 pounds, 11 ounces) and has a five round magazine, versus three for the earlier, nine pound, "Masterkey Breaching Module." The LSS is a 16.5 inch long, 12 gauge shotgun and can be operated right or left handed. It fires solid shot for blasting open closed doors, or lower velocity, non-lethal (most of the time) rubber slugs for dealing with hostile crowds without killing people. A stand-alone version weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces, is 24 inches long (with the stock collapsed). The LSS was rushed through development, testing and manufacturing because troops in Iraq expressed a need for this weapon. A batch of 200 have been produced and 50 are on their way to Afghanistan for field tests during actual operations. The LSS proved very reliable during testing, with some 15,000 rounds being fired.



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    Last edited by 1000ydstare; 07-05-2007 at 02:22 PM.
    If you post idiocy, don't get upset if you are seen as an idiot.... I don't.

    Here endth the lesson.




    Have you seen any combat?

    Seen a little on TV.

    You talk the talk, but do you walk the walk?



  14. #14
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    Shot guns are neither prohibited by the Geneva (which deals with treatment of civilians and prisoners of war) or Hague (dealing with the conduct of war) conventions.
    sorry...that was my understanding...that they were considered "inhumane" because of the type of damage they inflict....

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    Quote Originally Posted by savoy6 View Post
    sorry...that was my understanding...that they were considered "inhumane" because of the type of damage they inflict....
    Wouldnt be any worse than most weapons you would find on the battlefield. I think I would rather get hit by a shotgun than a flamethrower. Dont like being burned.

    Anyhoo............was watching a show on the history channel last nite about some marines on Butaritari and the Makin raid.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makin_Raid

    It mentioned that a NCO had the right to pick an alternate weapon. This Sergeant picked a shotgun. Not sure when this was allowed or not. Patton's pistols were not military issue thats for sure but he was a general. Maybe vcs-ww2 could explain further.

    101st Airborne

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