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Thread: Vassili Zaitsev

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    I stand corrected. If the Readers Digest says it happened..............

  2. #107
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    Default Re: vasilli zaitsev

    Quote Originally Posted by colonel hogan View Post
    ss colonel hienz thorwald head of the german sniper school in zossen.he and zaitsev stalked each other for 3 days but zaitsev got the kill. later he was blinded in 1 eye from shrapnel but regained sight after a doctor preformed surgery. page 239 of the world at arms the readers digest illustrated history of ww2. look it up!
    Ah yes the problem is that the sniper school in Zossen never had one Heinz Thorwald, matter of fact Germans did not have any records of the guy, what we know is that Zaitsev did shoot a kraut sniper, everything else including "hundreds of kills" is propaganda and heresay which is unconfirmed and undocumented, unless you use soviet newsreels as proof.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    This video spoke volumes to me-Zaitsev says who would have guessed some bigshot like this had flown to Stalingrad but when we dragged him out we found him to be the head of the Berlin sniper school !

    Probably from documents taken off the German sniper more than likely

    Regards"-

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wn8rCfs8n70
    Last edited by Tovarich; 01-03-2009 at 08:34 PM.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    Took this from the Axis History database on the subject.

    Here is what Anthony Beevor (author of Stalingrad) had to say:
    "Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
    Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
    This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda."

    The quote below is from a BBC News article:
    "Mr Beevor, whose acclaimed tome Stalingrad is rapidly becoming the definitive text on the battle, said while Zaitsev was a real figure there was no evidence to support the existence of Koenig.
    He said: 'I've been through the Soviet Ministry of Defence's archive in Podolsk and there is no record of such a duel.'
    'If it had taken place the Soviet propaganda machine would have leapt on it.'"

    Addendum by Martin Pegler
    Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
    "Scott,
    While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
    I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance."

    31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division


    "War does not determine who is right - only who is left."

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    Quote Originally Posted by ptimms View Post
    Took this from the Axis History database on the subject.

    Here is what Anthony Beevor (author of Stalingrad) had to say:
    "Indeed, the whole story of the sniper duel is fiction. There is absolutely no trace in the German military archives or SS records of SS officer Heinz Thorwald.
    Also there is absolutely no report of the duel in the Red Army files which concentrated on sniper activities (the daily reports of the Political Department of Stalingrad Front to Moscow)
    This great story can be classified as Sovjet propaganda."

    The quote below is from a BBC News article:
    "Mr Beevor, whose acclaimed tome Stalingrad is rapidly becoming the definitive text on the battle, said while Zaitsev was a real figure there was no evidence to support the existence of Koenig.
    He said: 'I've been through the Soviet Ministry of Defence's archive in Podolsk and there is no record of such a duel.'
    'If it had taken place the Soviet propaganda machine would have leapt on it.'"

    Addendum by Martin Pegler
    Curator of Weapons, The Royal Armouries, Leeds, UK
    "Scott,
    While researching for a book on sniping, I used some contacts at Russian museums to look into the veracity of the much reported fight between Zeitsev and Koenig [Thorvald]. Despite the fact that Russian company and regimental records were faithfully kept even throughout the worst days of the Stalingrad seige, nowhere is this duel reported in war diaries. This would seem to be an odd omission, particularly in the face of the cult of 'Sniperism' that the Soviet press were so keen to extoll.
    I tend to agree with Anthony Beevor's opinion that the shooting match never actually happened and was the result of propoganda reporting by the press who were always keen to promote new 'Heroes of the Soviet Union'. Apparently Zeitsev himself never confirmed or denied the event, an odd attitude in view of its apparent historical importance."
    There may or may not be records of the duel taking place, But as Zaitsev said in the video-He had a duel with a German sniper and when they dragged the German out they found this German sniper to be the head of the Berlin sniper school. Zaitsev confirmed the duel in his memoirs as well.

    Im taking Zaitsevs word on it and agreeing that this German sniper was in fact the head of Berlins sniper school-of course thats only my opinion and doesnt make it fact. The way I see it though there is too much proof to say that the duel did not happen, There is Zaitsevs word on camera and in his memoirs,Marshall of the Soviet Union Vassili Chuikov even told of the duel in his memoirs,There is Konings scope in the Moscow museum,and the encounter Zaitsev had with supposibly Konings daughter post war in Berlin Germany.

    Here is what Vassilis wife said about this encounter during an interview in 2006"-

    Zaitsev was invited to Berlin for a Soviet military conference,In the city hall of Berlin the civilians asked Zaitsev to tell about the duel with Major Koning,and some woman suddenly rises and tells Zaitsev-Im the daughter of Major Koning ! Zaitsevs face turned gray from this encounter. The Soviet organizers quickly evacuated Zaitsev into a car with protection and transported him out to avoid a threat... Indeed during the battle there is proof and fact that Zaitsev killed Koning, intelligence officers took the documents of the Fascist sniper. In Stalingrad Koning killed two of Zaitsevs snipers as well as several officers. During the duel Koning shot and shattered the scope on sniper Morozovs rifle,a student of Zaitsevs.Koning then wounded a political instructor, for a second Koning rose above from his cover and his Sniper scope made it possible for Zaitsev to see and thats where Zaitsev shot and killed the Major.Vassili said the Duel lasted for some four days and finally Zaitsev and his partner Nikolai Kulikov outwitted and destroyed the enemy sniper Koning.....

    That is the story im going to have to agree with

    Best regards

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    Quote Originally Posted by Tovarich View Post
    That is the story im going to have to agree with
    Well, if this story makes your life more convenient I'd hate to destroy your illusions. However, a "sniper-school" at Berlin or at Zossen (as an alternate version) is as fictious as a Major König/Koning/Konig/Konings etc. pp. or a "SS-Colonel" Thorvald.
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    Quote Originally Posted by Tovarich View Post
    Zaitsev was invited to Berlin for a Soviet military conference,In the city hall of Berlin the civilians asked Zaitsev to tell about the duel with Major Koning,and some woman suddenly rises and tells Zaitsev-Im the daughter of Major Koning ! Zaitsevs face turned gray from this encounter. The Soviet organizers quickly evacuated Zaitsev into a car with protection and transported him out to avoid a threat...
    I have read such a story in his memours. But i think this is nothing more then provocation.
    Probably some girl wished to get the attention to their person , for fun or with somthing els.
    Endeed the duel was a real, but Koning/Thorvalds was a nice fary tell of SOviet newspaper reporters.
    It was such convinient that Zaitsev himself has believed to it

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    Wasn't there also a very well known and successful woman sniper in the USSR?

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    Quote Originally Posted by saffer View Post
    Wasn't there also a very well known and successful woman sniper in the USSR?
    Although there were a lot of female snipers in the Red Army (e.g. german sniper Sepp Allerberger writes about a whole female sniper company in "Im Auge des Jägers") I don't recall a particular one.
    However I do recall this czech woman which can be considered successful:
    http://www.ww2incolor.com/other/800p...avId=x0e5e9167
    "I just ran out of ammo. I will ram this one. Good bye, we'll meet in Valhalla." - Major Heinrich Ehrler, April 4, 1945

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Vassili Zaitsev

    Quote Originally Posted by saffer View Post
    Wasn't there also a very well known and successful woman sniper in the USSR?
    A lot of soviet snipers were woman.
    http://www.wio.ru/galgrnd/sniper/gal1.htm
    Rosa SHanina
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roza_Shanina

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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