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Thread: Mers-el-Kebir, the war between friends.

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Mers-el-Kebir, the war between friends.

    Google has a long way to go. Or maybe I need to refine my search terms. 'Coz I can't find what I was looking for.

    Anyway, my recollection is that there was an issue about the absence of members of the French parliament which raised doubt about whether the votes of those present amounted to a valid act in appointing Petain.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Mers-el-Kebir, the war between friends.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the British declaration of war did in fact follow violation of Belgian neutrality and that the British had previously indicated that they would enter the war if this occurred. Speculating to their actual motives is fine but I don't see how people can be sure they would have entered the war in different circumstances.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Mers-el-Kebir, the war between friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Google has a long way to go. Or maybe I need to refine my search terms. 'Coz I can't find what I was looking for.

    Anyway, my recollection is that there was an issue about the absence of members of the French parliament which raised doubt about whether the votes of those present amounted to a valid act in appointing Petain.
    AIR, there were not the numbers in Petain's group, and his "Government" only established "legitmacy" via recognition by Germany, Japan, Italy.

    As such, it is very easy to argue that De Gaulle's lot had as legitmate a claim, to be the Government of France, by virtue of recognition by Holland, Britain, Canada.

    Reynaud seems to have been very quickly sidelined by Petain's lot, so I'm not certain any pronunciamento of his would be regarded as having either validity or legitimacy, despite his legalised position.

    Thus, one could argue that under existing International Law at the time, neither "Government" was a legally constituted one, and that both were in effect the results of coups d'etat. For the sake of convenience, it has always been historically accepted that both "Governments" were legitimate within their respective spheres, their very shaky legal basis notwithstanding.

    Regards, Uyraell.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Mers-el-Kebir, the war between friends.

    Part of the "shaky" legal argument against Pétain is that he nearly tried Reynaud, then handed him over to the Germans for internment...

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Mers-el-Kebir, the war between friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uyraell View Post
    AIR, there were not the numbers in Petain's group, and his "Government" only established "legitmacy" via recognition by Germany, Japan, Italy..
    No. Most neutral nations also recognised Petain's government, the most important one to do so was the United States Of America
    Last edited by redcoat; 03-19-2009 at 03:56 PM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Mers-el-Kebir, the war between friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by redcoat View Post
    No. Most neutral nations also recognised Petain's government, the most important one to do so was the United States Of America
    Be that so, then I gladly accept the reproof, with Thanks, redcoat.

    I was going by memory, which I admit is not always wise.

    The fact is, the vast majority of the hundreds of reference sources I once had at hand no-longer exist in my possession, due to My collection having been disbursed beyond recovery, without my permission.

    ______________________________
    To return to topic.
    I have several times over the years revisited the question of legitimacy of governments, not least when the issue resurfaces through the media detailing this or that government of various former colonies having issues domestically.

    Thus it is, that France, Spain, and certain of the Balkan states enter My thoughts again, in terms of the legalities I was taught in High School, regarding states and their governments.

    While I agree a case can be made for the Petain regime, I have always adopted the conventional historiographic axiom of dual legalities applying to the cases of alternate governments under Petain and De Gaulle.

    Regards, Uyraell.
    Last edited by Uyraell; 03-20-2009 at 03:08 AM.

    "Honi-Soit Qui Mal'Y Pense." :
    "Ill unto he who ill of it thinks."
    Edward III, Rex Britania, AD1348.

    "Wenn Schon, denn schon."
    "Be It Done, Best be It Be Done Well."
    Known German adage.

    "Until you have looked into a veteran's eyes and actually seen it,
    you'll never fully understand."
    ^Uyraell^

    "Aligaes : Amore vel Ira." :
    "^Winged Ones^ : Love or Wrath."

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