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Thread: Messerschmitt Me 262.

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
    For example, a discovery of the problem at high altitudes, generally known as engine surging, that was revealed due to intensive testing activity associated with that ill-fated Bell XP-59-A program. American engineers actually were able to analyze and correct this specific behavior before the British encountered it and before committing to larger, more powerful engines.
    Surges in gas turbine compressors are not just an altitude problem. I have fabricated a few myself at ground level, one that comes to my memory was one which announced itself with an earshattering and aircraft shaking bang during a confirmation run after an engine change (GE CF6-80) on a Boeing 767. the reson there was that for noise abatement regulations on insistence of the airport company, which had problems with the nimby's we had to carry out the test run inside an enclosed runup hangar, which was not designed for the intake airflow these massive engines require. As a result a partial vacuum developed in the intake when we pushed the throttles forward, which caused the compressor to surge and eventually stall. We were lucky that we didn't have to pick compressor blades from the floor behind the engine exhaust. Another one I have seen was a Prat and Whitney PW2040 on a Boeing 757, which surged when the pilot pulled the throttles back from take off power to climb power. At first the pilot thought he had a collision with some light aircraft. When we did a boroscope inspection of the high pressure compressor afterwards, it looked as if somebody had fired a shotgun inside it.

    Since centrifugal compressors are normally less surge prone than axial ones, I think the Germans should have encountered this problem first.

    Jan

  2. #77
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    Thank you for your patience, honorable ladies and gentlemen. I hope that I will be able to compensate your kind tolerance.

    What airplaine this engine was used for? Was it for the Pe-8 soviet WW2 heavy bomber? And do you heared about NK-12MPT the turbo-propeller engine for that was developed for the Ty-95 (later it was established at the Ty-114 and other) That amazing engine had a 161 g/HP/hour but the overal power was about 12 - 15 000 HP (!!!) at take of.
    Yes, my dear Mr. Chevan: Pe-8 (also equipped with another unduly forgotten Soviet Diesel-machine, Yakovlev M-40 F!), Yer-4, Il4, Tu-2 D, all these machines were equipped with those highly intriguing Diesel designs.



    Yakovlev M-40 F

    And yes, I am assuring you that I know by hart that superbly powerful, breathtaking Kuznyetsov NK-12, one of the best ever designed turboprop engines on this planet as well as all those undeniable qualities connected with this engine, but…

    I think that I have another surprise for you. You see, Soviet engineers actually have developed something that was capable to beat that fabulous previously mentioned fuel economy characteristic of NK 12. And the name of that miracle is OM-127 RN – superb, 8 cylinder, two-stroke, duble-acting conrod-free, liquid cooled turbo-compound airplane Diesel engine, capable to produce 3200 HP of continuous power, with an outstanding power-to-weight (PTW) ratio of 0.635kg/HP, specific power of 145 HP/liter, with the specific fuel consumption of 165 g/HP/hour, and operational ceiling of 12000 meters!



    S. S. Balandin – OM-127 RN two-stroke airplane Diesel engine

    Perhaps the best illustration of unprecedented complexity of this magnificent engine designed by a team of Soviet engineers that has been led by S. S. Balandin is that previously mentioned double-acting diesel principle. The 2-stroke cycle double-acting engine has a distinct advantage in power output compared with the single-acting type. With twice as many power strokes as a comparable single acting two-stroke engine and, with other conditions being equal, it develops practically twice as much power per cylinder! In addition, the operation is smoother due to the fact that the expansion stroke in one combustion chamber of the cylinder is balanced or cushioned by the compression stroke in the opposite combustion chamber in which the piston is closed at both ends and has a rigid piston rod extending from the lower end. Both ends of the cylinder are closed to form a combustion chamber at each end of the piston! The piston rod extends through the cylinder head of the lower combustion chamber and passes through a stuffing box to prevent leakage of pressure.

    In 1951 Balandin and Charomsky have constructed completely new, 24 cylinder X-scheme arranged, two-stroke double-acting, impulse-turbo-supercharger equipped airplane Diesel-engine M 227 that was capable to produce unparalleled 10000 HP at 15000 meters, with a specific fuel consumption of 148 g/HP/hour!

    And if you are asking me for the airplane/airplanes that have been intended for utilization of these engines, luckily I was able to find that answer too. This one:



    Tupolev Tu-487

    Yes my dear Mr. Chevan – completely forgotten Soviet project from 1947. and no, that is not a mistake – it realy has 6 engines.


    Librarian - thank you for your highly researched and informative posts.
    Oh, not at all, my dear Mr. Arhob1. I am pleased if those informations were useful.

    1 - Why was the speed of the Me262 so much higher than the Meteor?
    Because of the considerably better aerodynamics, my dear Mr.Arhob1.
    Although pretty contained, these informations are completely available for US military personnel, or officially registered and accredited researchers, because USAF actually had compared those airplanes in real tests. Alas, those results are still inaccessible for me, but fortunately I was able to find something in a book "Fluid – Dynamic Drag" by Dr. Ing. Sighard F. Hoerner, that was published back there in 1958. Of course, I have to find another, similar report about Gloster Meteor, but I think that these evaluations (undertaken by official US authorities) are the factual key for this conundrum we share here.



    Hoerner, Me 262 drag, op.cit.

    Of course, I am shoveling hereinafter…


    Another Forced Break of the post, honorable ladies and gentlemen. To be continued…

  3. #78
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    It appears from the comparison that you posted that the Meteor had much greater range which I presume means the Meteor had a greater fuel laod and weight etc.
    No, my dear Mr. Arhob 1 - actually Me 262 was the heavier plane. Here you have the factual comparison (Cristopher Chant : "WW2 – aircraft", Orbis Publishing Limited London, 1975)

    Me 262

    Empty weight: 4.420 kg
    Loaded weight: 6.400 kg
    Max takeoff weight: 7.130

    Gloster Meteor F Mk 3

    Empty weight: 3.996 kg
    Loaded weight: 6.033 kg
    Max takeoff weight: unknown


    why did the British go for range and not all out top speed?
    Unfortunately, I don’t know, my dear Mr Arhob1. Perhaps they were overwhelmed with a British-made new generation escort-fighter inevitability, or perhaps multi-role airplane necessity. Of course, this is only my personal, completely extraneous speculation.


    2 - In the jet engine cutaway diagram you posted why does the combustion products not blow back in to teh compressor?
    Because of the of Graham's law, my Dear Mr. Arhob1 – hot gases are always moving from the area of high pressure toward low pressure areas.

    The diffusion or spontaneous intermixture of two gases in contact is effected by an interchange in position of indefinitely minute volumes of the gases, which volumes are not necessarily of equal magnitude, being, in the case of each gas, inversely proportional to the square root of the density of that gas.

    And this is the best graphical illustration of the problem that I was capable to find.



    SNECMA - TPV diagram

    Just follow that pressure-flow (MPa) curve - everything will be completely comprehensible.

    What is the pressure of the air coming from the compressor versus the pressure of the combustion?
    I think that this is the most complete answer:



    Rolls-Royce Derwent – Engine Pressure Gradient


    3 - Did an Me262 ever take on a Meteor on a like for like basis and if so which came out on top?
    Unfortunately, my dear Mr. Arhob1 I don’t have suitable materials with reference to this subject and consequently I am utterly incapable to present any relevant information to you.

    That's one of the few engines with a mad cylinder arrangement that actually made good sense
    Definitely, my dear Mr. Pdf 27. Although it has to be emphasized that even more sophisticated schema actually has been employed by German engeneers in their Jumo 223 scheme.

    And if truth is to be said, another highly intriguing British engine that deserves mentioning is almost completely forgotten Opposed Piston Barrel Engine, based on the so called "Barrel Engine" concept. Such designs date from the 1910's and consist of a series of parallel cylinders wrapped around a drive-shaft, with the pistons coupled to it through a coupled to it through a swash-plate, cam or a or a wobble-plate.

    A variant of this engine specifically designed for aircraft flew in a Simmonds Spartan aeroplane in 1929, and after the WW2 highly talented British engineer Charles Benjamin Redrup, who worked on top-secret armaments projects for the Lancaster and other aircraft, including the hydraulic drive for the spinning "Dam Busters" bombs, have designed more motor-cycle engines and large 1.000 and 2.000 horse-power axial aero engines called "Redrup Radial."



    Redrup Fury, Barrel-Piston Engine

    More information about this highly intriguing design you will be able to find here:

    http://www.fairdiesel.co.uk/Home.html

    In the very same time I have to admit that I have my own equally intriguing favorites.

    Another forced brake of the post. Well, never mind…

  4. #79
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    Yeah, if you want very high fuel efficiency two stroke diesel turbo-compound engines are the way to go (the Napier Nomad is another example - postwar British engine, effectively a turboprop with a diesel engine as the combustor section). Problem is that compared to jets they're very heavy, not terribly well suited for high speed and a maintenence nightmare.
    Incidentally, I suspect the reason the early Meteors were slow was simply that they were a rush job to get engines into combat as fast as possible. Performance of the postwar Meteors with engines that weren't a great deal more powerful tends to bear this out. IIRC the main fixes were lengthened engine nacelles and a different tail
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

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    The first one represents one of the most daring engine designs that were constructed in late sixties, by designing team of the most prominent American company - Curtiss-Wright – leaded by an outstanding engineering personality, Dr. Ing. Max Bentele, who was put in charge of the new department for rotary engine development.

    Their concept of directly injected stratified charge omnivorous rotary engine (read: Omnivorous Wankel Diesel!), intended for the next generation of US/German joint Main Battle Tank Program (MBT 70 – indeed, one of the most intriguing ever designed combat machines!), as well as for the power supply of the new USN torpedo-vessels, was completely capable to run on JP4, JP5, Diesel-oil or gasoline! This 4-rotor Wankel-engine (Curtiss-Wright RC 4 - 232) that was capable to produce 1100 kW with a weight-total of 843 kg (power-to weight ratio 0.754 kg/kW!), was satisfied with average fuel consumption of 233 g/kW/hour.



    Curtiss-Wright RC 4 -232

    Curtiss-Wright was hopeful that these engines will be placed into military use due to their multi fuel abilities, but that huge and promising governmental contract never materialized, which was blamed on conservative marketing of the rotary’s inherent advantages. Nevertheless, this marvelous, highly sophisticated product of human ingenuity that represented a great US firm’s sunset will bear witness to pure, unadulterated engineering genius.


    Another engine that outlines the shape of things to come has been designed by a man that in 1937 joined the Junkers Flugzeugwerke, and in next to no time was promoted into the rank of department manager with responsibility for combustion engines development, and especially for the new generation of two-stroke, Shnürle-scheme scavenged Diesel engines.

    After the war, in 1957 he presented this tiny, only 9 HP at 3000 RPM producing 2-stroke Diesel engine, outfitted with almost infinitesimal, 350 cm3 combustion chamber displacement, as the very first predecessor capable to effectively shape the outlines of the marvelous engineering things to come – to successfully exemplify the so called adiabatic Diesel engine. And what to hell that means, honorable ladies and gentlemen? Well, perhaps a minuscule disclosure in plain English will be more suitable in this occasion: that small engine designed by the Dr. ing. Ludwig Elsbett actually represented the very first non-cooled Diesel engine on this planet.



    Elsbett Adiabatic Diesel

    You see, while in a conventional Diesel-engine, equipped with a pre-combustion chamber, approximately 31% of the energy contained in the fuel is removed from the engine through the cooling system and dispelled into the radiator or in the air, (only 26% in direct injection Diesel-engines!), in the case of the Elsbett-Diesel engine only about 14% to 16% of the produced heat has to be removed, without radiators or cooling fans - simply by the use of previously working exhausts gases. By my personal opinion this tiny engine represents a truthful example of a well-known "Vorsprung durch technik" maxim, that intrinsically German engineering philosophy.

    If you are interested for this highly original engineering approach, just follow this link:

    http://www.elsbett.com/us/elsbett-di...on-system.html

    In the meantime, as always – all the best.

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    Librarian and PDF, your debate about engines is clearly one of the most fine posting I ever seen here.

    However being this a topic about the Messer 262 we should keep the topic in this aircraft and in this case his engines.

    We can open a topic exclusively devoted to engines if someone is interested.

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    Thank you for the amazing infor dear Librarian.
    You continie to wonder me of your high detailed engeens posts
    I've never even heared about Tu-487, i've read aboutthe manies soviet experimentals aircrafts that were not passed in serial profuction, but about the Tu-487 i was not able to find any inro in the russian net.
    Was it a really flight aircraft or it was only the project?
    And thanks for the last post engines diagrams.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    I have strong suspicions that the efficiencies quoted for the Elsbett engine are somewhat... dodgy. The claims on their website don't quite hang together and I suspect that they'll probably fall afoul of the Second Law in practice.
    OK, so they built a working prototype. Was it ever independently tested to confirm their claims? Did it go into series production? Why, if it was such a massive advance on other engines did nobody else license the technology, and why does the company now not have anything to do with it but instead sell conversion kits for engines to run on vegetable oil?
    Apologies for the skepticism, but there are an awful lot of charlatans about making claims like that.

    Panzerknacker, if you don't like the way the thread is going either rename it or split the threads in two. Personally I've never thought that moderators trying to keep a thread on-topic is a sensible thing to do - this is a discussion board, not a question and answer centre.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
    Unfortunately, my dear Mr. Arhob1 I don’t have suitable materials with reference to this subject and consequently I am utterly incapable to present any relevant information to you.
    I think if I did a poll then Librarian would be voted the most polite member of this forum!

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    The last place where the Me-262s were manufactured...in the woods. The reason was the increasingly heavy bombing offensive in the german factories.


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    I'm actually shocked that the Luftwaffe was able to shoot down P-51s by 1945.

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    I'm actually shocked that the Luftwaffe was able to shoot down P-51s by 1945
    And why not, despite the overwhelming numeric inferiority it could be done if you was in the right time/location.

    The Me-262 was a proficient Mustang killer.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    And why not, despite the overwhelming numeric inferiority it could be done if you was in the right time/location.

    The Me-262 was a proficient Mustang killer.


    Well i think the Me-262 with his 4x30mm gun!!! was an excellent hunter of strategical bomber.I was covicted in when fought in computer fly simulator Il-2. However the Me-262 was not so good in fighter Vs fighter combat.
    Simply coz it had no enough manevreability and the jet engeenes Jumo004 were wery vulnerable. Even SINGLE 12-mm BULLET of mashingun could light up it.
    In the Net combatans of the P-51 with Me-262 the Mustangs had more great overal scope.
    BTW one time i was puzzled why the Mustangs were so dangerously explosive.
    While i've know it had a great fuel tank - for the road back to the Airfields.
    So even the single shell of german fighter's gun could cause the explosion of P-51.
    So much allied pilots died for this reason.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    And why not, despite the overwhelming numeric inferiority it could be done if you was in the right time/location.

    The Me-262 was a proficient Mustang killer.



    I could be wrong, but I recall that Mustangs actually shot down more Me-262s...

    I'll check.

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    Well, a P-51 pilot by the name of Urban Drew shot down two Me-262s on a single mission as well...

    October 7th. Drew was flying with wingman McCandless when he spotted the German airbase at Achmer and went down for a look. Two Schwalbe's were just taking off when Drew dived on them, McCandless keeping right with him. The first Me 262 exploded when hit by the .50s of "Detroit Miss". Drew says he was surprised when the second Me 262 tried to climb away, allowing him to turn inside and shoot away the jet's control surfaces. When Drew returned to base, he found that not only had his wingman failed to return after being hit by flak following Drew's victories, but the gun camera also failed. Only after the war did Drew learn his wingman had survived.

    More than 40 years later, an Air Force clerk noticed Drew's claim for two Me-262 victories on the same mission. She contacted a custodian of German war records, who knew former Luftwaffe pilots who might be able to shed light on the claim. Georg-Peter Eder had been set to lead the Me-262s of JG 7 that day, but when his aircraft had problems taking off the two-ill-fated pilots took off to lead JG 7. Eder says he saw a yellow-nosed P-51 dive on the Me 262s and shoot them down. Eder couldn't read "Detroit Miss" on the nose of the Mustang, but his account was sufficient to confirm Drew's two Me-262 victories.
    And BTW, US pilots would fly over Luftwaffe aerodromes in hopes of catching a Me-262 landing or taking off, when it was vulnerable and essentially useless in air-to-air combat...

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