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Thread: Which Belligerant Contributed Least To Their War Effort?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevan View Post
    The posts have readed - the question is still?
    Who was the fourth army in coalition?
    Again and again off-topic:

    Mark Axworthy (Third Axis, Fourth Ally - Romanian Armed Forces in the European War 1941-1945, London 1995 ISBN 1-85409-267-7)

    The title of this book refers to the fact that Romania was not only the third Axis power in the European war, but fielded the fourth largest Allied army in 1944 –45. Indeed, in 1943-44 it was the second Axis power on the continent and in 1944 –45 it suffered the third-highest Allied casualties.
    http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Article.asp?ArticleID=1111


    ...and incidentally, I have this quite expensive book.

    Edited: See also teh reviews on http://www.amazon.com/Third-Axis-Fou...4916398&sr=1-3

    Now please back on topic.
    Last edited by Dani; 03-26-2007 at 08:42 AM.
    Regimentul 38 "Neagoe Basarab"
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Off-topic:
    On 27 July 1941, Hitler sent a letter to general Antonescu (he was promoted marshal a month later), in which he asked for the further cooperation of the Romanian troops beyond the Dniester River and the Romanian administration of the territory between the Dniester and the Bug rivers. Antonescu accepted on 31 July. In fact the 3rd Army had already crossed the river on 17 July
    Edited: My bold.
    OK mate
    So the Antonescu desided to join the Barbarossa and invide the Ukraine voluntary.
    What for?Wat was the reason ?
    May be Hitler promised him the lands of Ukraine as the "payment" for the romanian deads in Stalingrad?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Again and again off-topic:

    Mark Axworthy (Third Axis, Fourth Ally - Romanian Armed Forces in the European War 1941-1945, London 1995 ISBN 1-85409-267-7)



    http://www.battlefront.co.nz/Article.asp?ArticleID=1111


    ...and incidentally, I have this quite expensive book.

    Edited: See also teh reviews on http://www.amazon.com/Third-Axis-Fou...4916398&sr=1-3

    Now please back on topic.
    OFF-topic again
    Thanks Dany but the poles have another point
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/russian/rus...00/4643217.stm
    president of Poland Kvasnevskiy arrived to Moscow on 9 May, although it cost it the large labor to hold in control strong pressure of the enemies of this visit to Poland. After returning home, it underwent an even sharper criticism because President Putin in his speech over Red Square did not mention Poland in the number of allies, who conquered Fascist Germany, although the Polish subdivisions, which entered into the troops of Great Britain and USSR, composed the fourth in the value army, which was battling himself against the Germans.
    .............................................
    http://lenta.ru/news/2005/05/03/yaruzelsky/
    81 years old polish ex-minister of defency Yaruzelskiy reminded journalists that the Polish army was the fourth in the value in the anti-Hitler coalition and only army, besides Soviet, whose banners in 1945 fluttered above the ruins of Berlin
    It's obvious mate the polish politics has own version of "who was the fourth army of allies"
    So where is the true?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  4. #34
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    Chevan and Dani
    Polish politician in this case have right.
    The ww2 in Europe wasn't start in 1944-1945 but 1st september 1939 and the end was 8 may 1945.

    The most important features of the Polish contribution to the defeat of Germany are determination and perseverance. Despite the severe defeat in 1939, the Poles formed five more armies, including four in exile: in France in 1939, in the United Kingdom in the summer of 1940 (after the defeat and capitulation of France), and twice in the USSR in 1941. These were the army of Gen. Anders that fought later in the South of Europe, and the one that emerged in 1943 and later fought at the Red Army’s side. The fifth Polish army, created at the end of September of 1939 was the conspiratorial armed force in the occupied territory. For the entire period of the war there also existed the very important “silent front” – the intelligence. Probably up to 2 millions Poles served since September 1st, 1939 to May 8th, 1945 in all the Polish military formations – regular armies, partisan troops and underground forces. In the final stage of war the Polish troops on all the European fronts amounted to some 600 000 soldiers (infantry, armored troops, aircraft and navy). In the summer of 1944, while commencing regular military struggle against the retreating Germans, the armed underground numbered more than 300 thousands sworn soldiers. It can be concluded that Poland put in the field the fourth greatest Allied army.
    www.ww2.pl

  5. #35
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    Do you see Dany.
    Due to our polish priend Polar we saw the 600 000 polish army really was the fourth army of coalition.

    Cheers.

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  6. #36
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    Bottom line, the main point in my posts is that Romania contribute more than the least belligerant at its war effort, on both Axis and Allied side.

    ... and I'm not mentioned the oil spared...

    So, it's time to move on on the topic.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Thanks mate!
    Bad luck so far. I part of my Grand dad'd papers that I have with me does not cover that period.
    I need to get hold od the first part first. I may be can get it in a month.
    I will let you know.

  8. #38
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    Cпасибо!!
    Regimentul 38 "Neagoe Basarab"
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  9. #39
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    Dany did you mean the attack of Romanian HQ in Odessa 22 october 1941?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_Massacre
    One week later on October 22, a bomb detonated in the Romanian HQ, killing the Romanian commander, 16 officers, 9 non-commissioned officers and public servants, and 35 soldiers.
    ?

    "I decide who is a Jew and who is an Aryan "- Hermann Goering

  10. #40
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    Yes, that's it but I asked Egorka on particular memories.
    Last edited by Dani; 03-27-2007 at 04:16 AM.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dani View Post
    Off topic: Egorka, did your grandfather remeber the incidents occured on the occupying of Odessa (huge explosion on the Romanian 10th infantry division HQ and reprisals afterwards?
    I got the papers. There is a page about the event in the days just after the exlosion. But I have to disapoint you, it was not my grand-dad who blew the building...

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorka View Post
    But I have to disapoint you, it was not my grand-dad who blew the building...
    There's no problem Egorka! Now I have to dissapoint you because I only wanted to know his thoughts on that!
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  13. #43
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    My grand dad by my mothers line, Yrie Klimov, wrote 3 volumes (each app. 350 pages) of memouars and genelogical reseach. He was born in in Ural mountans area in very small town called Petuhovo. He went Odessa right after he finished school. His plan was to study at Radiothechnical Institute of Odessa. He also had "white ticket" - i.e. he was free of military duty because of the comlete loss of the left eye function, he got an arrow in his eye in a childhood acident.

    I consider this books one of my most precious posetions.

    Ok. Here it goes about the events around the explosion day.

    ...
    The next day, 23 of October, I was planning together with Olga to visit aunt Sonya, but the night went very unrestfull. Shots were heared around the town. That was the Romanian guards firing being suspetful of the dark. Especially loud were the shots fired right under our windows. Just in the house next door a Romanian unit was settled. It is task was to patrol the area. Suddenly a sharp noise of а butt-stock on the front door and shout in Romainian language. I was already dressed and thefore went to open the door. Opened the door and suddenly see a pointed at me handgun held by a young Romanian officer. Behind him were 5-6 soldiers armed with rifles with attached bayonets.

    "Jidan esti?" (Any Jews in here?) - The gun barrel almost pressed into my forehead. I could not speak Romanian, but understood the meaning of the words. The officer and 2 soldiers entered the house and breifly looked around and then left to Orlovsky's house. Only by a pure acident Fira and Josef were not home. They were already pretty scared by the latest events and left to their acquaintances. They spend nights there in a small shed located in the back side of the yard. They felt more secure in there as the shed was not visible from the street and also did not look inhabited... A bit later, new shots and Romanian shouts sound in the yard. Apparently it has been a round-up. To my horror I see 4 guys under the Romanian guard. These guys were dressed as civilians but with uniform breeches and boots. They were the very same ones I got acquainted lately - the 4 tankers. They were going silently, heads down...

    During the day I found that the shelter, that was dug out between "Konservschikov" house and the sea, were laying sevaral corpses of women and elders. I guess they were hiding in the shelter during the round-up and were shot on the spot.

    Much later it got known that on 22nd of October the former NKVD headquarters were blown up.

    (here goes a bit of the NKVD building description)

    That is why the Romanians commited bloody reprisals over the citezens, shot on the spot, hang on the light poles and balсonies. I saw the hanged corpses near the hippodrome. 3 bodies were across the train station, on the balcony of 2 story house. The same picture was told by the neighbours, who visited other parts of the town. On the 24 of October in Alekseev garden (Stenovaya street, corner of Melnichnaya street) 250 men were shot by the Romanian militarists. These men were arrested on the streets and in the houses for no reason. The exacution was conducted with machinguns i the broad day light as revenge for the explosion. People say that the wounded were finished with the guns. These people were arrested during the round-up and were held as hostages. It was promised to free them if traitors would be found who whould tell where the persons responsible for the explosion were hiding.

    It became dangerous to wonder around the town. Obviously in this situation I got rid of my motorcycle that was hiden in the basement (My grand dad picked up and repared one of the motorcycles left by the retreating Red Army. There were a lot of equpment left because they could not evacuate it by ships.) If Romanians would had found about it - that would mean death to all the inhabitants of the house. There is no doubt about it, after what all saw happening during first week of their activity in Odessa.
    Last edited by Egorka; 04-30-2007 at 04:03 PM.

  14. #44
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    Thanks Egorka for sharing your grandfather's memories. All described above were true in those days. Marshal Antonescu (who later was convicted and executed for war crimes) ordered that for each officer dead in the blast to be shot 100 Jews and for each dead soldier to be shot 50 Jews.

    One single correction: 'Jidan esti?' means not 'Any Jews in here?' but 'Are you Jew?' You grandfather was lucky at that time.

    Once again thanks!
    Last edited by Dani; 04-30-2007 at 10:30 PM.
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  15. #45
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    You are welcome, Dani.

    Regarding the translation, I did it my self. In the papars it is writen with russaon alphabet but with Romanian sounds. So I just assumed the translation, as "ESTI" in Russian can mean "to be present" as well as "to be".

    Here als omentions about many Jews who were ordered to come to a collection point with 5 day provision on them and that their tragic destiny. It was in November 1941. I did not mentioned it before because it was not immidiatly after the explosion.

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