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Thread: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

  1. #16

    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by fert View Post
    Hi man
    some info about italian anti tank weapons:
    20mm Breda M35 and isotta-fraschini ntiaircraft used as anti tank role
    Do you have any data on the Isotta-Fraschini? I know about the others, but not that one.
    Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Williams View Post
    I don't think so - they don't look to be the right shape for that.
    this is more a guess, as there are points protruding from the muzzle bars, might this be an aiming device showing the lead needed to engage a flanked, moving vehicle?

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Hi man
    some info about italian anti tank weapons:
    Solothurn S-18-1000 and 1100, delivered on autumn 1940 to 10th army, Libia, evective against light AFV and at very short range and with a lot of lucky..against cruiser tank. some ATR was installed on light tank L3, british Bren carrier, and AFV shariana M42. On september 1941 was 136 ATR in north Africa, of wich 35 to Brescia division, 60 to Pavia, 15 to Ariete, On February 1943 155 ATR, of wich 55 to Trieste, 31 to Giovani Fascisti (young fascist), 7 to Pistoia, 33 to cebtauro and 6 with sharian detachment.
    20mm Breda M35 and isotta-fraschini ntiaircraft used as anti tank role
    ATR Wz 35 Marosczek delivered from german in 250 item. Used in north africa by paratroopers and motorized divison.
    ATR Boys, captured in Somaliland, used by Granatieri di Savoia in east africa. Trento division used boys on tobruk defence in 1941. Boys ammunition was manufactured in italy by SMI.
    ATR PTRD and PTRS on russian front...... the italian don't throw away anything.....
    Thanks for the images and information Just a question, the lower image shows one weapon that I know as "Scotti"

    Did the IF firm manufactured this weapon?

  4. #19

    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by tankgeezer View Post
    this is more a guess, as there are points protruding from the muzzle bars, might this be an aiming device showing the lead needed to engage a flanked, moving vehicle?
    It's possible, but I doubt it because there is no obvious way to adjust the sights to allow for different target ranges and speeds.
    Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website

  5. #20

    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker View Post
    Thanks for the images and information Just a question, the lower image shows one weapon that I know as "Scotti"

    Did the IF firm manufactured this weapon?
    I can tell you that Isotta Fraschini often made guns designed by Scotti.
    Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Problem solved then, Danke tony, the Scotti was also in 20x138b caliber and a better design than the Breda 20/65.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    thanks,
    Im happy to share these with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by tankgeezer View Post
    this is more a guess, as there are points protruding from the muzzle bars, might this be an aiming device showing the lead needed to engage a flanked, moving vehicle?
    It's a gear to rapid change the barrel. the breda 37 8mm MG used a similar gear.

    cannone mitragliera da 20/70 scotti-isotta-fraschini-om:
    The firm Alfredo Scotti in Brescia, at the end of 20's, patented an original mechanism of closing for automatic weapons with tangential arrest of the bolt with rotating head. This solution foun application in many weapons, from rifle caliber to 40mm. In the 30's the firm Isotta Fraschini in Milano bought the right to build all the Scotti's weapons, so were developed and improved. Scotti-IF developed also MG belt and magazine fed in caliber 6.5mm, 7.7mm, 8mm, and 12.7mm, always defeated by the Breda's weapons.
    Te first model of 20/70 IF (1934) was chambered for the 20x110RB, oerlikon, with 60 round drum magazine. After the adoptption by navy and army of Breda 20/65 in 20x138B, the IF was constricted to change hte ammunition, and adoptede the 12 round strip magazine used in the Breda.
    In 1938 army and navy oredered some IF gun, 50 with wheel gun carriage, and 150 with navy gun carriage. In 1939 the scotti Isotta Fraschini was again improved, by the feeding mechanism and gas pressure valve. The definitive model appear in 1941, and was reproduced by Società Anonima OM(Officine Meccaniche) in Brescia, and by C.E.M.S.A.(Caproni Elettro Meccanica Società Anonima) in Saronno. Many kind of gun carriage were developed, I only enclose some picture. Navy used Breda gun carriage wit S-IF gun, twin gun was also built.
    In 1943 DICAT (DIfesa Contro Aerei Territoriale = anti aircraft territorial defence) has 545 S-IF mod 39 and 41. Was developed a quadruple gun like german flakvierling, also mounted on M15/42 tank.
    After 8 september 1943, german produced S-IF like 2cm FlaK Scotti(i) in north italy firms. In february 1945 Luftwaffe has 497 IF
    some pictures:
    1 free pointment carriage
    2 navy
    3 mod 41
    4 free pointment
    5 schematic field carriage
    6 field carriage action
    7 field carriage with different sight, 2nd was simplified
    8 navy mounts in ground use, with italian humorism, antiaircraft umbrella...
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    Last edited by fert; 05-30-2008 at 09:48 AM.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Very good photos, too bad the 12 rounds magazine, sound little for continuous firing.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    I had forgotten that the Solothurn had a changeable barrel, (a senior moment I think,,,) makes sense, no fun handling a hot tube when changing.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    65/17 mod 1911

    Developed as mountain gun, the piece responded well a great deal to the 1ww operational employment resulting precise, strong and reliable. Its greatest defect was the elevation, up to 20°, absolutely insufficient in the mountain ground. In fact the artillerymen were often forced to increase elevation lifting the gun on parapets of earth making, that did assume to acrobatic position
    Besides, the lone charge, and the flat trajectory, they especially limited greatly the choice of the positions and the effectiveness in mountain ground.
    In 1920 the gun was replaced by the Austrian howitzer 75/13 mod 15, clearly superior to the Italian piece. In 1926 it was attributed to the infantry. How weapon of infantry, a long range not being more necessary, and were distributed new ammunition with reduced charge, which allowed a rather curved trajectory, very more proper for the fire above the troops friends. In 1936 in the operations was thickly employed for the conquest of the Abbissinia, then in Spain.
    In 1940 they were present 719 pieces with 1.542.000 shells. Particularly serious it was the lack of antitank ammunition , in the 1st year of war they were available only 93.600 APHE…. During the war it operate on all the fronts resulting extremely versatile and superior to the 47/32 by the most greater power and effectiveness of the APHE ammunition and EP (Effetto Pronto = ready effect = HESH). The EP ammunition were available from the spring 1942, and shipped to the 8 army and those fighting in Libya, in oriental and northern Africa. Was employed on Fiat 634 truck, 28 guns were installed on English Morris CS6 going to constitute together with 75/27 and 100/17 gun, the famous flying batteries. In January 1942 they were available 655 pieces, in December 444. in Tunisia they operated 96 pieces. The pieces captured by the Germans were renamed 6.5cm GebK 246(i ).
    The ammunition were:
    Torpedo shell with reduced and normal charge for the use of the infantry.
    APHE with base fuze mod 09
    Antitank shell EP, EPS with I-35 fuze (HEAT) and EPS 42 (HEAT) with special fuze of German conception.
    Canister
    Incendiary smoke shell with white phosphorus and I-38 fuze
    Steel case was made too.

    pictures:
    tunisia, la spezia division
    tunisia la spezia division with 3 wheel morcycle Trialce
    russia
    flyng batteries on british truck (morris ??)
    drinking on flybg batteries
    65/17 APHE with base fuze mod 09
    some ammunition of ww1 design: 1, 2 3 torpedo shell, 3rd has the rosetta ritardatrice ( retarding plate) to curved the trajectory. the other are shrapnell
    EP, EPS, canister and WP are missing, sorry.
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  11. #26
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Wonderful post fert, thanks

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    it's a pleasure.
    thanks to you.
    greetings

  13. #28
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    Bump.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    75/27 mod 06

    The gun was the Krupp model for export adopted in Italy in 1906. Other nations adopted it were: Belgium, Holland Turkey Sweden Denmark Romania Switzerland.
    After ww1 the gun was relegated to assignments of second line, coastal defence, strengthened works armament, position batteries GAF (Guardia Alla Frontiera = frontier guard) and groups of artillery displaced in colonies. Some were surrendered to Albania and Poland that used them against the Russian in the 1920 war. At ww2 eve they were in service 1700 guns mod 06.
    In March 1940 the 75/27 mod 06 and 11 Deport were so distributed:
    Infantry divisions: 2 groups 24 pieces
    truck-borne divisions: 24 pieces
    motorized divisions 16 pieces
    armoured divisions 24 pieces
    camice nere divisions 2 groups 24 pieces
    75/27 mod 06 and 11 Deport were the pieces employed in greater number by the Italian army. The new artilleries model 35 and model 37, that would have replaced the old pieces Krupp and Deport, in June 1940 they had not entered production of series yet.
    Because of the reduced caliber the 75/18 mod 35 and 75/32 mods37 already resulted obsolete before entering service.
    The shell from 75mm resulted ineffective against the strengthened works, they didn't destroy the trenches. By this way in Africa the 75/27 were clearly outclassed by the British 25pdr. To few it served the expedient to sink the tail of the gun mod 06 in a pit dug in the sand to increase the draught in elevation and to come to a maximum range of 10.2km.
    Both in Northern Africa and in Russia, the redoubt effectiveness of the infantry antitank weapons, often forced the groups from 75mm and 100mm to take sides inside the advanced point, to help the action of fire.
    Despite the vast employment in antitank role 75/27 were poorly fit to the contrast tank. gives the insufficient flat trajectory, the excessive height of the piece, the small horizontal sector of fire (especially Krupp), that prevented the fire against moving target to the brief distances. Other lacks were given by the impossibility from the pointer to contemporarily operate the mechanisms of aiming and shot, as well as the thickness of the shield, easily pierced by the AP bullets of enemy machine guns.
    To improve the effectiveness of the antitank fire APHE shells was introduced EP ( HESH) and EPS (HEAT). In the action against tanks the max range was 700m, but for multiple objectives was recommended to begin the fire to 300/400m.
    The mod 06 gun were employed in all the fronts except in Russia and oriental Africa.
    In March 41 80 guns displaced in Albania;
    69 in northern Africa in endowment to Bologna, Ariete, Sabratha and Sahara libico divisions, Catalano and Santa Maria columns
    Libya October 1941: 263 guns; February 1943 96 guns, distributed to Trieste, Giovani Fascisti, Pistoia, Spezia, Centauro, Raggruppamento Shaariano
    The Germans delivered pieces of Belgian origin with 38.000 round which also shot Italian ammunition, Dutch pieces Siderius and Yugoslav and Greek guns mod 903 and 904. After september 8 1943 the Germans denominated the gun FK 237(i)
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  15. #30
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    Default Re: Italian Artillery and Anti-Tank Weapons

    75/27 mod 11 Deport

    Adopted in 1911 to eliminate some deficiencies that emerged during test with 75/27 mod 1906 and the delay of deliveries of the pieces mod 906.
    Italy enter ww2 with still the horse-drawn artilleries. Of 1300 75/27 mod 11 gun, only 268 had been modified for the mechanical drawing. Someone were replaced with pneumatic tyres celerflex, but the absence of special elastic organs they made the substitution useless.
    The relationship of the general D’Antonio in Libya:
    75/27 mod 11 gun celerflex wheel;
    the material, for how much endowed with celerflex wheels results too much delicate to follow the normal speed and the long marches of the mechanized columns. They easily torn the bolts of the shield, and sometimes the trails was broken from the gun carriage.
    In 1942 to increase the redoubt off road mobility, the 12° auto-raggruppamento in northern Africa install on tractors of artillery TL 37, the 75/27 gun mod 11 eliminating the wheels and cutting the tails.
    In Russia some guns climbed on the pneumatic wheels recovered by large cases abandoned by the enemy. In 1941 the CSIR (Corpo Spedizione Italiano in Russia=Italian Russian Corps) then ARMIR (ARMata Italiana in Russia)had 48 guns climbed to 72 in 1942.In March 1941 148 pieces were in Albania. In October 1941 39 pieces in Tripolitania and 99 in Cirenaica. In the December 1942 after the battle of El Alamein the guns were reduced to 42, in Tunisia in 1943 only 10 guns had remained.
    After September 8 the gun was renamed by the Germans 7,5cm Fk 244(i)

    2nd picture is the conversion made by 12° auto raggruppamento on tractor TL-37
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