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Thread: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

  1. #16
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    Timbo...

    WW2 is a complex subject. What may appear to you as "stupidity" may well, in fact, be a genuine desire from the individual to expand his/her knowledge.

    The individual that does not occassionally, ask foolish questions, learns nothing. Those that sit at the back of the class, mute from the embarrassment of "looking stupid" will learn nothing, and may well come out of that classroom convinced they "know", when it is, in fact, self delusion.

    I don't like reading the ridiculous offerings of the feeble minded either, but taking the time to answer may well remove the feebleness and substitute an informed opinion for it.

    We all have to begin somewhere....these kids just don't read like we do, and often come to the internet because it's all they know how to do. Maybe a push in the right direction will ENCOURAGE, and eventually, this kid will begin to educate himself with a little wider reading...and who knows? He may even go on to write something that did not occur to us!
    "It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees!"

  2. #17
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    the armoured deck carriers? once hit they were 'bent'.

    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-030.htm

    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-042.htm

    let alone their small aircraft capacity due to the extra top-weight and small lifts.

    Another aspect was their singularly poor AA/DP armament, whether 4.5" or 5.25". the RN had several 4" through 5.25" medium calibre guns. Fixed ammo, too!

    http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/MCGWW2.html

    And the quite poor RN AA direction system - the HACS.

    http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-066.htm

    The RN did rather well, despite the equipment, looking back.

    ;-)!
    Skeptical mensurer, and audio scavenger.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    in 1998 Bob Ballard found the wreck of the USS Yorktown sitting almost 17,000 ft down. I think they tried to find the sunken Japanese carrier(s) as well. but none were found. as far as i know. maybe someday. i hope
    Titanic explorer finds Yorktown.............link





    gallery photos


    USS Hammann sinking - photo from Yorktown









    "There are no great men, there are only great challenges that ordinary men are forced by circumstances to meet."- ADM William F. Halsey

  4. #19
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    midway was the battle that changed the course of history

  5. #20
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    Well, I feel while Midway surely shortend the war, still even without it we would have worn Japan down. Just to much production capacity on our side, plus we would have had the atomic bomb anyway, pretty much at the same time we had it in August, 45.

    That does not take away from what happend, as it was a series of lucky enguagements from the Coral Sea and before on to produce Midway. And again, it most certianly shortend the war and kept the Japanise from expanding their gains.

    Deaf

  6. #21
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
    Well, I feel while Midway surely shortend the war, still even without it we would have worn Japan down. Just to much production capacity on our side, plus we would have had the atomic bomb anyway, pretty much at the same time we had it in August, 45.

    That does not take away from what happend, as it was a series of lucky enguagements from the Coral Sea and before on to produce Midway. And again, it most certianly shortend the war and kept the Japanise from expanding their gains.

    Deaf
    All agreed, but a crushing American defeat at Midway as intended by the IJN would have changed the course of the war dramatically.

    Guadalcanal would probably have been lost and Australia isolated, and perhaps invaded. This would have led to a very different, much larger and much later Central Pacific thrust towards Japan from America without the assistance of the SWPA thrust which bogged down and drained Japan's forces, resources and shipping.

    But the end result was that America could train naval pilots and launch ships and submarines much, much faster than Japan could and would eventually defeat Japan.

    Although if Japan had managed to capture Hawaii it would have put America at a significant disadvantage because of the greater distances to be covered from continental America. Even then, as long as America maintained its will to win, Japan was going to be defeated sooner or later.

    The release of Pacific forces to the war against Germany would also have altered, and presumalby accelerated, that conflict on the Western Front and Mediterranean.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 04-23-2009 at 07:22 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
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  7. #22
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    About the only way I can see of Japan forcing us to the table is this:

    1. At Pearl Harbor all three of the fleets carriers had been there.
    2. The Japanese divebombers hadn't misread the signal and all of them went after the ships instead of some of them going after the AA positions.
    3. They hadn't thought the Utah was a carrier and wasted torpedos on a target ship!
    4. And if Nagumo had ordered a third strike knowing all the carriers were taken care of in the first two strikes.

    That would have made it a shattering blow to us. The whole fleet would have been gone. Carrers, battleships, crusiers, subs, oil...

    They might even then had brought the battleships up and gave Hawaii a pasting.

    Due to the Battle of the Alantic, I think we would have had to either make peace with Germany or Japan cause we would have had a difficult time fighting both. Most nations have a very hard time with 10 year wars, and that's very much is the way the U.S. thinks!

    Deaf

  8. #23
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deaf Smith View Post
    About the only way I can see of Japan forcing us to the table is this:

    1. At Pearl Harbor all three of the fleets carriers had been there.
    2. The Japanese divebombers hadn't misread the signal and all of them went after the ships instead of some of them going after the AA positions.
    3. They hadn't thought the Utah was a carrier and wasted torpedos on a target ship!
    4. And if Nagumo had ordered a third strike knowing all the carriers were taken care of in the first two strikes.

    That would have made it a shattering blow to us. The whole fleet would have been gone. Carrers, battleships, crusiers, subs, oil...

    They might even then had brought the battleships up and gave Hawaii a pasting.

    Due to the Battle of the Alantic, I think we would have had to either make peace with Germany or Japan cause we would have had a difficult time fighting both. Most nations have a very hard time with 10 year wars, and that's very much is the way the U.S. thinks!

    Deaf
    I think the result would have depended very much upon public reaction in America.

    The Germany first policy was, from the perspective of national interests, a sensible and correct strategy agreed upon by Roosevelt and Churchill and their planners which relegated the Pacific war to a second class effort, but not without a lot of demands from the American public and politicians to strike at Japan.

    A crushing defeat at Pearl might have created such a popular demand for retaliation that the Pacific war would have had a much higher military priority, which in turn could have weakened the American effort against Germany.

    I doubt that the American people would have meekly submitted to an even worse sneak attack than the real one which outraged them and sealed Japan's fate on the first day of the Pacific war, or that they would have allowed their government to negotiate a humiliating peace with what most Americans regarded as an inferior, in every sense, nation.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  9. #24
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    Hi, there !!

    Anyway you regard Midway, there is a fact regarding Hiryu: it apparently hadn't
    been spotted during the ill-fated Devastator attack and subsequent Dauntless
    butchering of Japanese carriers. The result was the attack and loss of Yorktown.
    Puzzles me what could have been the final score if Zuikaku and Shokaku would
    have been there too, as planned.

    Bye.
    Bruno.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I think the result would have depended very much upon public reaction in America.

    The Germany first policy was, from the perspective of national interests, a sensible and correct strategy agreed upon by Roosevelt and Churchill and their planners which relegated the Pacific war to a second class effort, but not without a lot of demands from the American public and politicians to strike at Japan.

    A crushing defeat at Pearl might have created such a popular demand for retaliation that the Pacific war would have had a much higher military priority, which in turn could have weakened the American effort against Germany.

    I doubt that the American people would have meekly submitted to an even worse sneak attack than the real one which outraged them and sealed Japan's fate on the first day of the Pacific war, or that they would have allowed their government to negotiate a humiliating peace with what most Americans regarded as an inferior, in every sense, nation.
    Several at the top of the US command structure were very much in favor of a Japan-first strategy. Most notable was Admiral King, who didn't particularly like the British and felt a personal vendetta against Japan after Pearl. Many of the admirals such as King had spent a good deal of their careers training for and contemplating "War Plan Orange" as a resurgence of German naval power was not seen as likely until the late 1930s...

  11. #26
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    Default Re: The Battle of Midway: "Five minutes" that changed the War.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I think the result would have depended very much upon public reaction in America.

    True but we are talking maybe a 10 year war, and public opinion might very well change after a few years.

    Anyhow, history notes there have been very very few perfect battles (Surigao Strait being an exception.) So happly we didn't have to see if we could go 10 years in a war (or worse, Germany gets both Russia and England and we have to fight that one AFTER Japan!)

    Deaf

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