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Thread: Centurion Tank

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh
    Thanks GEORGE. Excellent info there!
    My pleasure Nick

    I only regret that I could not find more on the early WWII variant of the Centurion. Later models are not a problem. The Tanxheaven site had some interesting photos though.

    -
    Well, I had the same problem. I can only assume that none saw combat although a few were deployed for that reason...

    I also know the Australians used the Centurion in Vietnam and favored it's thick armor, and the way she could take a BP-40/RPG7 and still run...
    -

    The Centurion was also the favorite tank of Israel's Armoured Corps during the 1973 Middle-East War. It gave a good account of itself on the Golan Heights in the early days of that war.

    The South African Army also used the Centurion (called the "Oliphant") into the 1990's.

    A very successful design indeed.

    -

  2. #17
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    It dose sound like a very interesting thesis I hope you did well on it.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller

    The South African Army also used the Centurion (called the "Oliphant") into the 1990's.

    A very successful design indeed.

    -
    The Olifant may have been up-gunned, up-armoured, up-engined and had it's electronics modernised, but it is still to all intents and purposes a Cent and the SADF treadheads at Tempe were pretty handy at using them - ask the Cubans and the Russians !

    It was due to be replaced by the Olifant 2B, and when the terrs became the govt they ordered many of them.
    However cash became a bit short when there are all those Swiss bank ac****s to be filled, and this excellent design has been relegated to a test bed for future armour.
    We'll see just how long money takes to filter through to the SANDF. - Top tip: Don't hold your breath !

    The Olifant is still in use as the RSA's MBT now - or rather those that are currently maintained ( ) are , and unless something very odd happens will remain so for a long time to come.
    "Don't call me stupid !" - Otto 'Galtieri' West.
    __________________
    Stupidity should be a crime. Ignorance should be punished.
    Refusal to accept corroborated facts should result in a chainsaw enema.

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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuts
    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller

    The South African Army also used the Centurion (called the "Oliphant") into the 1990's.

    A very successful design indeed.

    -
    The Olifant may have been up-gunned, up-armoured, up-engined and had it's electronics modernised, but it is still to all intents and purposes a Cent and the SADF treadheads at Tempe were pretty handy at using them - ask the Cubans and the Russians !

    It was due to be replaced by the Olifant 2B, and when the terrs became the govt they ordered many of them.
    However cash became a bit short when there are all those Swiss bank ac****s to be filled, and this excellent design has been relegated to a test bed for future armour.
    We'll see just how long money takes to filter through to the SANDF. - Top tip: Don't hold your breath !

    The Olifant is still in use as the RSA's MBT now - or rather those that are currently maintained ( ) are , and unless something very odd happens will remain so for a long time to come.
    -

    Very interesting information Cuts. Thanks.

    So they are still in service with SANDF - amazing. Do you know if the Centurion is still in service with Sweden and Denmark? As of mid-1990's they were (along with Jordan, Singapore and Israel).

    Switzerland had used them into the late 1980's if I'm not mistaken.

    -

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller
    -

    Very interesting information Cuts. Thanks.

    So they are still in service with SANDF - amazing. Do you know if the Centurion is still in service with Sweden and Denmark? As of mid-1990's they were (along with Jordan, Singapore and Israel).

    Switzerland had used them into the late 1980's if I'm not mistaken.

    -
    The Danes binned their Cents maybe eighteen years back, and now use Leo 1A5 DK and Leo 2A4 (upgraded to 2A5.) The latter had a small tank battle in FRY during UNPROFOR, in fact I met one of the tankies from the unit involved when he was overseas and he gave me a good run down of the contact.

    The remaining Swedish Cents are used for mobilisation only, the last crews being trained on that panzer in 2000.
    Otherwise they have their Strv 121, (Leo 2A4,) and Strv 122 (Leo 2 improved) as MBTs.

    The Swiss use the Pz87, (licence built Leo 2A5,) but have mounted a 140mm main armament.
    I was fortunate enough to visit their MBT trg facility and they can now do the majority of their trg in simulators, a considerable saving on fuel, maintenance, etc.
    They can 'field' a complete BG in the facility and a number of other countries, including the Germans and Swedes, send their crews to Thun for trg.
    "Don't call me stupid !" - Otto 'Galtieri' West.
    __________________
    Stupidity should be a crime. Ignorance should be punished.
    Refusal to accept corroborated facts should result in a chainsaw enema.

    a luta continua, em adiante a vitória
    __________________

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuts
    Quote Originally Posted by George Eller
    -

    Very interesting information Cuts. Thanks.

    So they are still in service with SANDF - amazing. Do you know if the Centurion is still in service with Sweden and Denmark? As of mid-1990's they were (along with Jordan, Singapore and Israel).

    Switzerland had used them into the late 1980's if I'm not mistaken.

    -
    The Danes binned their Cents maybe eighteen years back, and now use Leo 1A5 DK and Leo 2A4 (upgraded to 2A5.) The latter had a small tank battle in FRY during UNPROFOR, in fact I met one of the tankies from the unit involved when he was overseas and he gave me a good run down of the contact.

    The remaining Swedish Cents are used for mobilisation only, the last crews being trained on that panzer in 2000.
    Otherwise they have their Strv 121, (Leo 2A4,) and Strv 122 (Leo 2 improved) as MBTs.

    The Swiss use the Pz87, (licence built Leo 2A5,) but have mounted a 140mm main armament.
    I was fortunate enough to visit their MBT trg facility and they can now do the majority of their trg in simulators, a considerable saving on fuel, maintenance, etc.
    They can 'field' a complete BG in the facility and a number of other countries, including the Germans and Swedes, send their crews to Thun for trg.
    Thanks for the updates Cuts.

    I didn't realize that the Danes retired their Centurions that long ago - oh well. Danish Centurions - Mk 3's upgraded to Mk 5 and Mk 5/2 standard. Approx 110 Mk 3 upgraded to Mk 5 standard retaining 20 pdr gun (83.4 mm) and approx 105 other Mk 3 converted to Mk 5/2 standard with 105 mm L7A3 rifled gun firing APFSDS-T, smoke, HESH and APDS ammunition types, an Ericsson laser rangefinder sight and 12.7 mm MG.

    Swedish Centurions - Strv 81 (Mk 3/Mk 5 delivered early - mid 1950's), Strv 101 (approx 170 Mk 10 delivered 1960 upgunned with 105 mm L7 rifled guns and 8 mm MG's, fitted with turret direction indicator, American radios and new auxiliary engine), Strv 102 (approx 270 Strv 81's upgraded with over 110 minor changes made and fitting of 105 mm gun), Strv 104 (in the early 1980's the Strv 101 and Strv102 started further modernization programs involving the fitting of an Ericsson gunner's laser rangefinder sight, a Bofors integrated Tank Fire Control system, the 71 mm Lyran illuminating twin launcher system and an AVDS-1790-2DC 750 hp V-12 air-cooled diesel engine coupled to an Allison CD-850-6A automatic transmission.)

    The Swiss Pz 87 (Swiss version of German Leopard 2) - first 35 built in Germany and delivered in 1987. The remaining were built under license in Switzerland (Swiss MG's, radios, etc.).

    That is interesting about the 140 mm gun installation on the Pz 87 and their MBT training facility.

    The Germans certainly have had success in marketing their Leopard 1 and 2 MBT's. Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Switzerland, Turkey (maybe more?).

    Most of the above is from "Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles", Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, London, 1994, (pp 34-40, 126-128).

    I would like to post more on the Centurion, but it is getting late. I have much information - including more on the "Olifant" - but it may take a few days to pull it all together.

    Again, thanks for the information.

    -

  7. #22
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    A really like the idea of the early Centurion in wich a fast firing canon is used as a secondary coaxial weapons, some times a AFV encounters targets wich could be destroyed by this means without the need of a heavy AP gun, like trucks, APCs, cars, motorcicles, etc.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker
    A really like the idea of the early Centurion in wich a fast firing canon is used as a secondary coaxial weapons, some times a AFV encounters targets wich could be destroyed by this means without the need of a heavy AP gun, like trucks, APCs, cars, motorcicles, etc.

    +1
    Considering the limited supply of main gun ammunition a tank can carry, something similar to the Cent's original armament makes sense - even more so in the kind of combat that is being experienced today.
    Things are going to get a whole lot worse from now on.......

  9. #24
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    Exactly always seems to me ridicolous using a 88mm gun next to a 7,92 or 7.7mm Mg due the large balistic differences of those weapons, unfortunately this weapons layout has survive until our days in the MBT like the Abrams of Challenger. I would like see one of these with a coaxial 20-25mm gun.

    Incidentally other tank wich use a large weapon as coaxil was the argentine Nahuel DL-43 (late 1943 design), in this the secondary gun was either a 20mm Madsen gun or a .50 caliber Browning.


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker
    Exactly always seems to me ridicolus using a 88mm gun next to a 7,92 or 7.7mm Mg due the large balistic effects of those weapons, unfortunately this weapons layout has survive until uor days in the MBT like the Abrams of Challenger. I wuld like see one of these with a coaxial 20-25mm gun.

    Incidentally other tank wich use a large weapon as coaxil was the argentine Nahuel DL-43 (late 1943 design), in this the secondary gun was either a 20mm Madsen gun or a .50 caliber Browning.

    -

    Looks like a caricature of a Sherman almost.

    -

  11. #26
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    Depends what you want your coaxial armament for though ........

    If you want something useful for decimating advancing hordes of infantry, you might be better with a smaller calibre weapon such as an MMG, which has a high sustained rate of fire and for which you can carry plenty of ammo.

    If you want to take on lighter vehicles, then a 20mm might be useful, but why not use the main armament?

    A 20mm cannon such as POLSTEN or Oerlikon is drum or straight magazine fed, which means you'll only get a shortish burst out before you have to reload. Under almost any circumstance, you're just as knacked if you're hit by a 7.62 round as a 20mm so why not use the lighter weapon?

    The modern BMP 3 has a 100 mm main armament and a coaxial 30 mm, but those guns are designed for different things. The 100 mm fires HE and also serves as a launcher for the AT 10 STABBER missile, but with a fairly low MV (250 m/s). Although the missile can be used against slow-moving helicopters, the 30 mm is much better for this sort of thing.

    The BMP 3 still then has a 7.62 mm coaxial MG for use against infantry.

  12. #27
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    The use of Coax on British tank is for ranging. The Besa followed by the .5 were ballisticly matched to the main gun.

    The firing procedure would be something like, estimate range then a 3 round burst, if over drop, if under add. Another burst followed by a big bang.

    This method was still in use on the Chieftain till the introduction of lasers and still as a back up. Other countries used range finders but the Brit thought this was quicker.

    The chieftain’s commander had a GPMG fitted to the cupola that could be aimed and fired from inside.

    There is an incident in Korea (Royal Irish Hussars?) who shot Chinese troops off each other’s tanks as the carried out a fighting withdrawal.

    I was told a joke a long time ago about IDF infantry carrying 2BL hammers. They would run up to enemy tanks and hit it 3 times on the side. The crew thinking that they have been spotted and ranged would bale out because they new that a 105 round was on the way.
    The \'eathen

    The \'eathen in \'is blindness bows down to wood an\' stone;
    \'E don\'t obey no orders unless they is \'is own;
    \'E keeps \'is side-arms awful: \'e leaves \'em all about,
    An\' then comes up the regiment an\' pokes the \'eathen out.

    Rudyard Kipling

  13. #28
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    Looks like a caricature of a Sherman almost.
    Actually the Nahuel was a very superior tank with a more heavy front armor, the canon was pretty much the same as the 75mm Sherman.

    The use of Coax on British tank is for ranging. The Besa followed by the .5 were ballisticly matched to the main gun.

    The firing procedure would be something like, estimate range then a 3 round burst, if over drop, if under add. Another burst followed by a big bang
    Actually I have seen a video of the Centurion using the .50 caliber to aim, very simple idea, also in case to be needed the heavy MG can sweep the infantry at more range than the .30/7,92mm caliber.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panzerknacker
    also in case to be needed the heavy MG can sweep the infantry at more range than the .30/7,92mm caliber.
    If you are engaging troops with a .5 at long range (1000+m) you are going to waste a lot of ammo. You will get a better beaten zone with a 7.62 or .30. it may sound good and look fine and is very good on light vehicles but for area the MMG is better. And any range over tracer burn out is wasting ammo.
    The \'eathen

    The \'eathen in \'is blindness bows down to wood an\' stone;
    \'E don\'t obey no orders unless they is \'is own;
    \'E keeps \'is side-arms awful: \'e leaves \'em all about,
    An\' then comes up the regiment an\' pokes the \'eathen out.

    Rudyard Kipling

  15. #30
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    -

    More on the Centurion Tank
    Histories and Variants:



    01-Centurion-Caiti-1978-01
    Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 92
    -


    02-Centurion-Caiti-1978-02
    Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 93
    -


    03-Centurion-Caiti-1978-03
    Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 94
    -


    04-Centurion-Caiti-1978-04
    Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 95
    -


    05-Centurion-Caiti-1978-05
    Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 96
    -


    06-Centurion-Caiti-1978-06
    Modern Armor: A Comprehensive Guide, Pierangelo Caiti, Squadron Signal Publications, 1978, p 97
    -


    07-Centurion-MkIII-01
    Tank Versus Tank, Kenneth Macksey, Salem House Publishers, 1988, pp164-165
    -


    08-Centurion-Janes-1976-01
    Jane's Pocket Book of Modern Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles, Christopher Foss, Macmillan Publishing, 1976, p 20
    -


    09-Centurion-Janes-1976-02
    Jane's Pocket Book of Modern Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles, Christopher Foss, Macmillan Publishing, 1976, p 21
    -


    10-Centurion-Foss-1977-01
    Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 63
    -


    11-Centurion-Foss-1977-02
    Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 64
    -


    12-Centurion-Foss-1977-03
    Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 65
    -


    13-Centurion-Foss-1977-04
    Armoured Fighting Vehicles of the World, Christopher Foss, Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977, p 66
    -


    14-Centurion-Janes-1987-01
    Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane's Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 33
    -


    15-Centurion-Janes-1987-02
    Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane's Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 34
    -


    16-Centurion-Janes-1987-03
    Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook, Christopher Foss, Jane's Publishing Company Ltd, 1987, p 35
    -


    17-Centurion-Observers-1987-01
    Tanks and Other Armoured Vehicles, Charles Messenger, Frederick Warne & Co., 1987, pp 106-107
    -


    18-Centurion-CCG-1988-01
    Modern Fighting Vehicles, Bob Lewis, Longmeadow Press, 1988, pp 66-67
    -


    19-Centurion-Combat-Survival-1991-01
    Combat and Survival, Volume 11, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 645
    -


    20-Centurion-Janes-1992-01
    Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane's Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 36
    -


    21-Centurion-Janes-1992-02
    Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane's Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 37
    -


    22-Centurion-Janes-1992-03
    Jane's AFV Recognition Handbook: Second Edition, Christopher Foss, Jane's Information Group Ltd., 1992, p 38
    -


    23-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-01
    Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 126
    -


    24-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-02
    Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 127
    -


    25-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-03
    Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 128
    -


    26-Centurion-Greenhill-1994-04
    Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 129


    ---


    South African Centurions - The Olifant:


    Centurion-SA-01
    Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 78
    -


    Centurion-SA-02
    Battle Tanks and Support Vehicles, Alan K. Russell, Greenhill Books, 1994, p 79
    -


    Centurion-SA-03
    South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 123
    -


    Centurion-SA-04
    South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 128
    -


    Centurion-SA-05
    -


    Centurion-SA-06
    South African War Machine, Helmoed-Romer Heitman, Presidio, 1985, p 44
    -


    Centurion-SA-07
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 65
    -


    Centurion-SA-08
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 66
    -


    Centurion-SA-09
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 67
    -


    Centurion-SA-10
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, pp 66-67
    -


    Centurion-SA-11
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 68



    ---



    Centurion AVRE:


    Centurion-AVRE-001
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, pp 1174-1175
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-01
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1174
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-02
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1175
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-03
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1176
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-04
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1177
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-04A
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, pp1176-1177
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-05
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1178
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-06
    Combat and Survival, Volume 20, H.S. Stuttman, Inc., Aerospace Publishing, ISBN 0-87475-560-3, 1991, p 1179
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-07
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 69
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-08
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 70
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-09
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 71
    -


    Centurion-AVRE-10
    Tanks at War, Peter Darman, Motor Books International, 1996, p 72


    ---


    I plan to add more information - next Israeli Variants of the Centurion - under a separate post. It may take about a week or more to pull everything together in my spare time.

    -

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