Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 116

Thread: US small arms of WWII

  1. #31
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    The London Offices of the BBC, Broadcasting to the Commonwealth and the Colonies.
    Posts
    161

    Default

    Bluffcove, I see your understandable confusion about guns, rifles, and rifle guns.....

    However, I think we can safely conclude that a shotgun is indeed a smoothbore gun......but what about rifled shotguns?? (As used by the septics for shooting deer.)

  2. #32
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
    Posts
    1,915

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by IRONMAN
    Quote Originally Posted by Bladensburg
    The carbine mechanism is very similar to (it's based on) the Garand but because it does not shoot the same round it can't be said to be just a "smaller version" in the way that the Lee-Enfield No.5 IS a smaller version of the No.4.
    Actually, it is not based on the design of the M1 Garand. There is an article on the site of an armoury company (Fulton Armory) that manufactured the Carbine during WWII and is still in business today, which states that the Carbine's action is not based on the Garand's. However, like many firearms, the action is similar.
    Here we go again.

    This is what Fulton Armoury has to say about the M1 carbine:

    http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1_Carb.htm

    The M1 Carbine: the War Baby. Baby because it was so much a 3/4 scale rifle; War Baby because it was the product of an urgently conceived requirement equally urgently satisfied by "Carbine" Williams and his colleagues at Winchester.

    The Carbine was intended to "fill the gap" between the 9+ pound, full power M1 Rifle and the capable, but limited by its caliber, M1911A1 pistol. The intended user was the officer, the artilleryman, the signalman, the truck driver and the like, for whom the M1 Rifle was just too big and inconvenient to be practical, but who also needed a weapon with more useable reach than the pistol. At any but point-blank ranges the Carbine was easier to hit with than the pistol, too. More than 6 million Carbines were produced by a plethora of contractors, from hardware manufacturers to jukebox companies.

    After WWII the Carbine soldiered on in the hands of US troops and their allies right through Vietnam. It was particularly popular with small-statured troops, a popularity only overshadowed by the M16 as it became available.

    Loved by many, reviled by a few, the M1 Carbine seems to capture the hearts of most who see and handle it. If imitation is the most sincere compliment, the Carbine-like Ruger 10/22 in its millions has paid the Carbine the highest complement!

    Go to our M1 Carbine page and see what Fulton Armory has done with the War Baby. Our M1 Carbine Parts page has a wide selection of parts, tools and accessories for the Carbine. Take a look and see if you can't find something you like!

    Thanks for your interest!
    and

    http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1Carbine.htm
    A Pocket History of the M1 Carbine
    by Robert Gibson

    Someone wanted some info on M1 Carbine....maybe this will help. Much of it is copied from the NRA's booklet "U.S.Caliber .30 Carbine".

    Over a span of just 38 months (the first carbines were delivered in June 1942, the last in August 1945) nine primary contractors established manufacturing facilities, tooled up and turned out some six million carbines of all types - M1, M1A1, M2 and T3/M3. The production program was such a success that, excepting Inland and Winchester, the remaining contracts were cancelled in mid-1944. Those two companies completed their carbine production runs in August, 1945.

    M1 Carbine Production Inland Manufacturing Division, G.M.C...... 2,632,097 43.0%
    Winchester Repeating Arms Co................ 828,059 13.5%
    Underwood-Elliot-Fisher Co.................. 545,616 8.9%
    * Saginaw Steering Gear Div., G.M.C........... 517,212 8.5%
    ** National Postal Meter Co.................... 413,017 6.8%
    *** Quality Hardware & Machine Co............... 359,666 5.9%
    International Business Machines Corp (IBM).. 346,500 5.7%
    Standard Products Co........................ 247,160 4.0%
    Rock-Ola Co................................. 228,500 3.7%
    ---------
    Total: 6,221,220

    * Note that Saginaw had two plants in operation, one in Saginaw, MI and one in Grand Rapids, MI. The Grand Rapids facility assumed a contract that had been originally awarded to Irwin-Pedersen Arms Co....I-P had assembled only 3,542 guns at the time, none of which were accepted by the government.

    **Note that a few early NPM receivers are marked "Rochester", for the Rochester Defence Corp. A very few late receivers are marked "CCC", for Commecial Controls Corp.

    ***Note that some Quality Hardware carbines were assembled using receivers made by Union Switch & Signal Co, hence the "UN-QUALITY" marked carbines. These are highly prized by some carbine aficionados.

    The history of who made what during the brief 38 months of production is a story that can (and does) fill a book. Might I suggest you find a copy of "WAR BABY" or "M1 Carbine Design, Development and Production" by Larry Ruth. Another recommended book is "Guide to Collecting the M1 Carbine" by Robert Gibson (no relation, by the way!)...they're all good books with tons of info. Another excellent reference book is "U.S. M1 Carbines: Wartime Production" by Craig Riesch, a North Cape Publications "For Collectors Only" series.

    Which are the most collectable? Depends on what your own personal criteria might be. Rock-Ola's are always desirable, not only because there were fewer made than any other make but because Rock-Ola was a famous juke box maker of the period who's product was quite familiar to the WWII GI's. Others look to the Winchester carbines because of the name on the receiver....I own one these myself. There are all kinds of reasons to own a particular "brand" of carbine...I've worked with IBM mainframe computers systems for some 20 years, I think it would be rather fitting to obtain an IBM carbine sooner or later. 20 carbine owners might give 20 different reasons for owning their particular carbine....you really need to read up on M1 history and decide what YOU want.

    Mechanically they were each and every one built to the same design specs as specified in the contracts the maker signed with the U.S. Government. You could strip 25 M1 Carbines down to their component parts, mixed 'em up in a box and then reassemble them at random back into 25 carbines....they would be expected to function within the specified performance parameters.

    Finding what you want is another matter. If not available at your local gunshops or gunshows you could get a current issue of Gun List, the indexed firearms paper....many, many M1 Carbines will be found listed in the Military Weapons section. Another source is Fulton Armory....call (301) 490-9485; the current advertised price is $699.95 for service grade M1 Carbine.

    On this subject....at a recent gunshow I attended in Birmingham, Alabama (Jan. 5, 1997) the prices being asked for typical M1 Carbines were running from low of $450 for Inlands to a high of $650 for Rock-Olas. The Carbines I examined appeared to contain the usual mixed parts one would expect....a combination of the original mix of parts by the manufacturer, augmented by the various arsenal refurbishment programs following WWII and Korean wars.

    As a counterpoint my local gunsmith still has a few Quality Hardware Carbines for sale at $385....mixed parts so certainly not collectables, but they're quite acceptable "shooters" and would satisfy most who have an itch to own a GI Carbine of their own. On this subject I've heard reports of "shooter" grade M1 Carbines still going for between $250 to $300 in scattered locations around the country. They've not been this affordable in my local area since back in late 1994 or early 1995.

    Something a Carbine newbie should know....none of the primary contractors made ALL of the parts for these handy firearms. Best among the prime contractors was Underwood-Elliot-Fisher, which made 35 of the M1 Carbine's 55-58 parts in its Hartford and Bridgeport, Conn., plants. At the other end of the spectrum, Quality Hardware made only receivers, depending upon government supplied parts and parts from other contractors and sub-contractors from which its guns were assembled.

    Subcontractors involved in the carbine program number in the hundreds, and made everything from pins and springs to receivers and barrels.

    The U.S. Cal. .30 Carbine was designed from day one as a true "mixed parts" military firearm....carrying the "any part from any source will fit" philosophy of the U.S. Rifle, Cal. .30, M1....the M1 Garand....one step further.

    In my rather humble opinion the design and manufacture of the M1 Carbine by the American Military Industrial Complex of the WWII era would have to be considered a watershed event in the field of military firearms production.

    It certainly goes without saying there are no "bad" USGI World War II era M1 Carbines seeing they were all built to the same milspecs and thoroughly inspected before acceptance by Uncle Sam. True, there are many out there now that are in need of large doses of TLC due to their hard travels around the world for the last 50 years. A good service rifle gunsmith can do wonders with one of these rather sad re-imports if someone were so inclined to rescue it, but....supplies of repatriates could be drying up. That WRA carbine I mentioned above was one of these neglected war dogs when I stumbled upon it.

    It now rests in the gunsafe with my Garands, M1911 Govt pistols, M1903-A3 Remingtons 'n others from the World War II era...including a German KAR 98k. Quite a sight actually, old cronies...and mortal enemies...resting together with actions gleaming and stocks giving off the odor of fresh linseed oil.

    There were also commercial M1 carbine models produced from 1960's to 1980's by Iver Johnson, Plainfield Machine Co., & Universal Sporting Goods. I don't much care for commercial M1 carbines so am not really up on their history, OTOH some do prefer them over GI carbines...different strokes for different folks. I did see a nickel-plated IJ once that was quite striking....well, to be perfectly honest I thought it was somewhat gaudy.

    The commercial carbines simply *do not* compare well to a true-blue USGI M1 Carbine that's in good repair....my own biased opinion of course .

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ADDENDUM: "Bavarian Carbines"....What Are They?

    Following from the "For Collectors Only" edition of "U.S. M1 CARBINES" by Craig Riesch, published by North Cape Publications (revised, 2nd edition)

    "After World War II, the United States, as one of the Occupying Powers in Germany, was responsible for providing community policing in the U.S. Zone. As the United States had no intention of either remaining as an Occupation force in Germany any longer than necessary, or in becoming involved in the day-to-day government of the community, local police forces were established to asume standard policing duties ranging from traffic control to criminal investigation to forestry protection. One of the most extensive of these police forces was the Bavarian Rural Police.

    "Bavaria is one of the largest German states and included extensive forested and mountainous regions. The U.S. Army made M1 Carbines available to these local police units, many of which remained in service for more than ten years.

    "Many can be identified by the stampings, "BAVARIAN RURAL POLICE", "BAVARIAN FORESTRY SERVICE", "BAVARIAN BORDER POLICE" and "BAVARIAN STATE POLICE" on the receiver. Other carbines were furnished to the federal border guard service, the "BUNDESGRENZSHUTZ". A variety of city and state police marks will also be noted. Most also had their component parts stamped with the last three or four digits of the original receiver serial number, as was standard German practice. Many of the carbines were reblued or refinished in "black oxide" which sometimes appears almost "blue/black' in color, depending on the polish of the metal beneath. On others, the issue rear sight was removed and the dovetail filled with a block of steel which was machined with a series of grooves across the top to prevent glare.

    "Occasionally, they were rebarreled with new barrels manufactured by the German firm of ERMA Werke. A non-adjustable rear sight with a "Vee" notch was brazed on the front of the receiver behind the handguard. It provided a sight picture very much like that of the Mauser bolt action rifle, fam- iliar to its new users, many of whom had seen previous police or military service during World War II."

    Hope this information is of some help.
    Robert Gibson

    You will note that at NO POINT does it say that it was NOT based on the Garand. Ooh, misrepresentation of a source? Where have we seen this before!

    You also say that Fulton Armoury produced the M1 carbine during WW2. In the second quote, you will see a list of manufacturers of the M1 carbine during this period. Because you will not actually have read it, here it is again:

    M1 Carbine Production
    Inland Manufacturing Division, G.M.C...... 2,632,097 43.0%
    Winchester Repeating Arms Co................ 828,059 13.5%
    Underwood-Elliot-Fisher Co.................. 545,616 8.9%
    Saginaw Steering Gear Div., G.M.C........... 517,212 8.5%
    National Postal Meter Co.................... 413,017 6.8%
    Quality Hardware & Machine Co............... 359,666 5.9%
    International Business Machines Corp (IBM).. 346,500 5.7%
    Standard Products Co........................ 247,160 4.0%
    Rock-Ola Co................................. 228,500 3.7%
    Some of those numbers don't quite jive with Smith & Smith "Small Arms of the World, P. 641, ISBN 0-88365-155-6, but the list of manufacturers does.

    Note - Fulton Armoury does not appear. Plain facutal incorrectness? Priceless!
    1884 electric cartridge. Look similar to anything?

  3. #33
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    In a Commonwealth Country
    Posts
    700

    Default

    Using traceable sources? Providing traceable evidence for your claims? Isn't that just anti-American blather

    In fact,your use of rational argument proves that all of Europe is embroiled in a plot to undermine the USA by not invading the Soviet Union in the middle ages using the US Marine Corps armed with jet engines and ex-Presidents of the United States numbers 15. 24, 35 and 41.
    Per Ardua ad Astra - fixin\' and mendin\' branch

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Bucharest - Romania
    Posts
    3,302

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crab_to_be
    In fact,your use of rational argument proves that all of Europe is embroiled in a plot to undermine the USA by not invading the Soviet Union in the middle ages using the US Marine Corps armed with jet engines and ex-Presidents of the United States numbers 15. 24, 35 and 41.


    Edited: Sorry lads, I can't stop
    Regimentul 38 "Neagoe Basarab"
    Divizia 10 Infanterie


    101st Airborne

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, Eng.
    Posts
    73

    Default

    Too get back on topic I have this list, feel free to add or omitt if you like:

    Colt M1911/A1
    Smith & Wesson M1917
    Guide Lamp Liberator (Produced for partisans)
    Smith & Wesson British Service Revolver (Produced for the UK)
    High Standard Model H-D
    High Standard Model B
    Springfield M1903A1
    Springfield M1093A3
    Springfield M1093A4
    M1 Garand
    M1 Garand C
    M1 Garand D
    M1 Carbine
    M1A1 Carbine
    M2 Carbine
    M3 Carbine (Possibly)
    Cranston & Johnson M1941 Rifle
    Ithaca 1937 Shotgun
    Remington M31
    Remington M11
    Stevens M620A
    M520-30 Shotgun
    Winchester M12
    Winchester M97
    Thompson M1928/A1
    Thompson M1/A1
    United Defence Model 1942
    M2 Hyde
    Smith & Wesson Light Rifle Model 1940 (All sold to the UK)
    Reising Model 50
    Reising Model 55
    M3/A1 'Grease Gun'
    M3 'Grease Gun' Supressed (Mounting either a Sten supressor or an American made suppressor)
    Browning Automatic Rifle M1918A2
    Browning M1919A4
    Browning M1919A6
    Browning M1917A1
    Browning M2/HB
    M1/A1 Rocket launcher 'Bazooka'
    M9 Rocket Launcher 'Bazooka'
    M18 57mm Recoiless Rifle
    M1/A1 Flamethrower
    M2-2 Flamethrower

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    716

    Default

    Nice list King. Here are a couple of updates.

    1.) ADD: Savage Model 720 Riot Shotgun

    2.) Delete: M1D Garand, the M1D was not produced during WWII and would not properly be considered a WWII infantry weapon.

    The M1C barley saw service and most likely in the pacific.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    716

    Default

    King..a couple more for add to the pistol section.

    1.) 1917 Colt .45 ACP, looks almost like the S&W

    2.) Smith & wesson .38 Victory model

    3.) Colt .32 pocket Model

  8. #38
    IRONMAN Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Stoat


    You will note that at NO POINT does it say that it was NOT based on the Garand.
    Yes, I quote the wrong Armorey as the source.

    However, as I stated, the M1 Carbine is not based upon the M1 Garand.

    "Although the M1 Carbine is sometimes described as a development of the M1 Garand rifle, it has a related but different internal design. It is based upon a lightweight tappet-and-slide gas system and uses detachable, large-capacity magazines. It fires a smaller and lighter (.30 Carbine) (.30 caliber (7.62 mm)) cartridge which is very different, in both design and performance, from the full-sized .30-06 cartridge used by the Garand."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Carbine

    The similarity is that they both use a similar syle of bolt, as numerous firearms do, and which does not mean that one specific weapon is "based upon" the design of another specific weapon!

    Heh.

  9. #39
    IRONMAN Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Crab_to_be
    Using traceable sources? Providing traceable evidence for your claims? Isn't that just anti-American blather

    In fact,your use of rational argument proves that all of Europe is embroiled in a plot to undermine the USA by not invading the Soviet Union in the middle ages using the US Marine Corps armed with jet engines and ex-Presidents of the United States numbers 15. 24, 35 and 41.
    GOOD LORD. Listen to yourself spout. Why not debate instead of make insulting allusions about someone.

    EDITED TO CORRECT A TYPO.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
    Posts
    1,915

    Default

    Oh, god, don't start this one again.

    It's different cos the gas system is different, due to the lower pressure cartridge. Nobody disputes that the action of the carbine was based on the garand... except you. And an ambiguously-worded Wikipedia article which is probably referring to the action as a whole, including the gas system which /is/ different. Hell, the wikipedia article even says "related design", not "independent design", implying some heritage there.

    Hatcher, p. 177: "has a breech mechanism like that of the Garand"
    Smith & Smith, p. 89-90: "The locked-breech Winchester with its short-stroke action was selected, partly because of its highly efficient lock action which resembled the Garand quite closely"

    From an engineering perspective, you don't independently come up with such a similar system to a well-known wpn from the same country a few years later which was not independently developped elsewhere. Simple tipping block systems were re-invented all over the place (Stg 44, SVT, FN49 etc), but the relatively complex Garand-type of rotating bolt was only ever used in Garand, M1-3 carbines, M14, Mini14, M1A and BM59.

    EDIT: Can you actually quote a proper source which says clearly that the M1 carbine was an independent design? OR are you going to quote Wikipedia over and over again as usual?

    EDIT 2: Look, seriously, it would be such a shockingly amazing surprise were it a totally independent design that Hatcher and Smith & Smith would mention it, particularly as both wpns come from the same country a few years apart. As would "War Baby", which is the definitive history of the M1 carbine. Cuts has a copy, I've not read it. He assures me however that it doesn't say such a thing.
    1884 electric cartridge. Look similar to anything?

  11. #41
    IRONMAN Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Stoat
    Oh, god, don't start this one again.

    It's different cos the gas system is different, due to the lower pressure cartridge. Nobody disputes that the action of the carbine was based on the garand... except you.
    You have that backwards dude. You are the exception. You've seen the encyclopedia article that states that it is not based on the M1 Garand. Why do you persist after reading the truth? What is wrong with you?

    Do you know so little about firearms that you think because the bolt is similar between two weapons that one is a copy of the other? If that were true, then the majority of weapons would be considered, by you anyway, to be copies of each other by genre.

    Good Lord dude. I mean, you didn't realize that a .22 can pass through a man, you think a .410 with shot is not going to stop a man at near PB, and now you're trying to say that 2 weapons with similar bolts are copies?



    You might like to know, Patent Office Clerk, that the M1 Carbine is a compilation of several designs, which David "Carbine" Williams examined and drew ideas from.

    The M1 Carbine is not a freaking copy of or based upon the M1 Garande. You have been duped, again.

  12. #42
    IRONMAN Guest

    Default

    I own firearms from 4 different makers. All of the rifles have similar bolts, no 2 of them is made by the same company.


  13. #43
    IRONMAN Guest

    Default

    For that matter, I'm sure that many early semi-auto rifles (pre WWII) have similar bolts. I guess you'd say, "They are copies of each other!"


  14. #44
    IRONMAN Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Man of Stoat
    EDIT: Can you actually quote a proper source which says clearly that the M1 carbine was an independent design? OR are you going to quote Wikipedia over and over again as usual?
    So now Wikipedia is not a credible source, after you have used it so much for posting here. Good Lord Patent Office Clerk. Good Lord.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Koninkrijk der Nederlanden
    Posts
    1,915

    Default

    David Williams invented the short-stroke tappet gas system which was used on the M1 carbine. The rest of the design was from Winchester.

    All this "expertise" from a man who thinks that the calibre of the M1 garand is .306" (from here: http://www.gamingforums.com/showpost...3&postcount=45), that semi-autos are less powerful than bolt or revolver guns, that the M1 carbine is "spring operated", etc etc etc. And I seem to remember that you said that the AK47 was based on and is mechanically similar to the MP44 cos they look similar from the outside, when in fact they are mechanically extremely different.

    The wikipedia article says that it is a RELATED design. Not INDEPENDENT. NOWHERE have you posted a source that says that it was an INDEPENDENT design.

    You have also not posted any proof that a .22lr will go through a person other than your own "blather". Repeating yourself does not make it true.

    Most pre-war semi-auto rifles have vastly differing bolts. Get a copy of Smith & Smith and a copy of Hatcher and have a look.

    I'd like to know which 4 rifles you have which have similar bolts - if they're hunting rifles I'd wager that they're all based on the Mauser 98.

    EDIT: Examples of rifles with actions based on the Mauser 98: M1903 Springfield, CZ550, Musgrave, Parker-Hale M82 etc, Pattern 14 (although without the cocking-on-opening feature).
    1884 electric cartridge. Look similar to anything?

Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Sharpshooters of WWII
    By Hiddenrug in forum 2006 Archive Room
    Replies: 64
    Last Post: 11-30-2006, 08:17 AM
  2. Type Zero
    By Firefly in forum 2006 Archive Room
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 01-25-2006, 10:53 AM
  3. Use of tracer in BREN guns
    By Man of Stoat in forum 2006 Archive Room
    Replies: 69
    Last Post: 01-19-2006, 08:34 PM
  4. Machine guns
    By George Eller in forum 2005 Archive Room
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 12-08-2005, 09:19 PM
  5. WWII Airshows
    By AmyLynnB17 in forum 2005 Archive Room
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-11-2005, 11:32 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •