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Thread: New Film on Dunkirk

  1. #16
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Agreed on the cinematography, the movie looks stunning. As far as accuracy, the film was panned by a French newspaper for glossing over their resistance around the town that was very determined. There was also a series of running battles around the Dunkirk pocket with heavy casualties on both sides. The infamous "Panzer Halt Order" in mentioned, but the tanks were halted for three days and were again attacking for what would have been the majority of the film. I like the action and the minimalist dialogue. But I think the scale of the thing seemed a bit sterile as there were about 338,000 that got out.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Saw it a couple of days ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Track View Post
    However, for purely entertainment value I would say it is worth your money.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Track View Post
    The cinematography is spectacular.
    Agree also.

    Quote Originally Posted by Half-Track View Post
    But as someone mentioned, done more like a documentary and at times jumps from scene to scene quite rapidly. Not your "Saving Private Ryan" (my favorite) type movie with a definite story line and plot ...
    It's not a patch on 'Saving Private Ryan' because, as you correctly say, that film has a definite story line and plot which follows the characters through from the beach landing to the final scene. The problem with, and deficiency in, Dunkirk is that it attempts through various devices to cover the evacuation of more than 300,000 soldiers and the associated small boat efforts and air battles from the British viewpoint by a series of unconnected vignettes focusing on a few undeveloped and unrepresentative characters. It's a failure as a 'based on fact' fiction and as a documentary, and on any other basis apart from some impressive scenes of air and naval conflict.

    I found it particularly offensive in starting the film and progressing it with a couple of soldiers, one of whom turns out to be French, who were effectively deserters trying to escape through the orderly troops lined up on the beach waiting for evacuation. Much the same with the possibly shell shocked or just cowardly 2nd Lt picked up by the small boat who repays his rescuers by killing one of them. Might have happened, but hardly representative of the vast majority of troops.

    As a film which has anything to contribute to any understanding of Dunkirk, it's at best a great spectacle and at worst a great insult to the vast majority of troops who evacuated in good order under very bad conditions, but no worse than millions of other soldiers endured in countless smaller groups in many wars and in even larger groups during WWII under even worse conditions, such as Stalingrad and Battle of the Bulge.

    Overall, it's just a nice piece of cinematic entertainment with lots of spectacles and a suitably noisy soundtrack without which it would have considerably less impact.

    I don't understand why it's being hailed as the greatest film since 'Saving Private Ryan' or any other film, because it lacks plot, character development, character engagement, and just about everything else that a great film has.

    Still, it's certainly worth watching for entertainment.

    Just don't confuse it with anything that has much to do with the reality of the 300,000 plus troops who weren't the deserters upon whom the bulk of the film focuses for flimsy dramatic effect as they try to steal aboard a ship with a hijacked casualty or cower in a grounded boat, both of which experiences were on the basis of the film that of about a dozen or so of the 300,000 plus troops on the beach.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  3. #18
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    As far as accuracy, the film was panned by a French newspaper for glossing over their resistance around the town that was very determined.
    The point is made in the first scene that the French were defending a line through which the British were able to escape to the beach.

    The absence of detail about the French fighting in what by then was the British rear is no more unreasonable than the absence of detail about the conduct of the British troops who weren't the majority of deserters and shell-shocked or cowardly troops upon whom the film focuses for characters.

    If I had a relative who'd been evacuated at Dunkirk, I'd be incensed by a film which focuses upon deserters for the story line. As indeed I am dismayed by that approach when I have no family or any other connection with Dunkirk.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    There was also a series of running battles around the Dunkirk pocket with heavy casualties on both sides. The infamous "Panzer Halt Order" in mentioned, but the tanks were halted for three days and were again attacking for what would have been the majority of the film.
    Really?

    I thought the only attacks were from the Stukas. Then again, I'm just basing that on this historically accurate film.

    And just on the Stuka point, early on in the film there is a scene of the effect of a creeping bomb pattern hitting the troops on the ground. That creeping pattern is what you'd get from a medium to heavy bomber dropping multiple bombs, not Stukas.
    ..
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  4. #19
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    And now, ladies and gentlemen (cue drum roll) for the idiotic politically correct contingent's contribution to history.

    "USA Today's Brian Truitt opined that "the fact that there are only a couple of women and no lead actors of colour may rub some the wrong way."

    Truitt has, understandably, been held up to no small amount of ridicule. It is a little difficult to shoehorn women and ethnic minorities into a story which, put simply, featured few. Dunkirk is, after all, very much based on the battle – on air, land, and sea. There is no back story, no emotion-laden scenes of loved-ones left behind. There is no examination of the cultural mix of Britain at the time.

    Truitt's utterance is little short of odd, akin to complaining there is a lack of Afro-Caribbeans in Alfred The Great, or commenting that it would have been better if a few women had made it out of Stalag Luft III in The Great Escape. If he wants women in the context of deep historical inaccuracy, he should perhaps tune into Raquel Welch in One Million Years BC."

    It was inevitable that the following complaint would be made from predictable, and invariably ill-informed, quarters.

    But Truitt is not alone in expressing dissent at Dunkirk's modus operandi. Marie Claire critic Mehera Bonner declared that the film just screams 'men-only', claiming the only reason male critics liked it was because it allowed them to feel manly.

    "To me, Dunkirk felt like an excuse for men to celebrate maleness," she wrote, "which apparently they don't get to do enough. Fine, great, go forth, but if Nolan's entire purpose is breaking the established war movie mould and doing something different, why not make a movie about women in World War II?"
    http://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/big-i...ail/story.html

    Gee, no films about women in WWII? I must have imagined Mrs Miniver; Carve Her Name with Pride; Millions Like Us; Battalion; Night Witches in the Sky; not to mention the multi-episode TV show Tenko.

    The likes of Ms Bonner can always be relied upon to demonstrate their ignorance when putting forward their automatic complaints about how badly they are oppressed / ignored / downtrodden. They'd be more persuasive if they had facts rather mere outrage on their side.
    ..
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    Montesquieu

  5. #20
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    I have not seen the movie and I am curious about the premise. How many countries celebrate a military defeat? There was at least one and maybe two battles in the Pacific in which the United States Navy was malled. We don’t celebrate that nor do we celebrate Pearl Harbor. We remember Pearl Harbor, however, we do not celebrate it. The British were outclassed in almost every aspect of warfare at Dunkirk.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Perhaps you should see the film before actually drawing any conclusions? We don't "celebrate" Pearl harbor, but yet there are many films about it...

  7. #22
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastwind View Post
    I have not seen the movie and I am curious about the premise. How many countries celebrate a military defeat? There was at least one and maybe two battles in the Pacific in which the United States Navy was malled. We don’t celebrate that nor do we celebrate Pearl Harbor. We remember Pearl Harbor, however, we do not celebrate it. The British were outclassed in almost every aspect of warfare at Dunkirk.
    Much would be dependent upon your definition of the word "Celebrate" . As for Dunkirk, There is just cause to celebrate, the salvation of a few hundred thousand fighting men, who will live to fight another Day is a very good cause for celebration, and it is a fair stretch to call that a defeat. Perhaps you should see the film before making comments on it. Pearl Harbor was an undeclared act of Piratical mass murder. While there was no dancing in the Streets, we can celebrate the fact that the Pirates didn't deliver the the Blow they had wished to, and that so many were saved of the injured, and trapped. Once the Allies completed their work, then the World's populations could, and did celebrate a very well earned set of victories.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    I was not making a commitment on the movie, rather the event itself being held in such high esteem. The fact is it was a total defeat and it is true that the retreat helped save the majority of the British land force. And I suppose if one wants to say it was a magnificent retreat, certainly one could argue it was on if the best.

    As to the premise that the allies celebrated subsequent victories, it has nothing to do with the British defeat at Dunkirk. In fact, outside of North Africa, in what major land battles did the British play a pivotal role? They were late on DDay held up by light resistance at the beach. More later.....
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 08-17-2018 at 08:29 AM.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastwind View Post
    I was not making a commitment on the movie, rather the event itself being held in such high esteem. The fact is it was a total defeat and it is true that the retreat helped save the majority of the British land force. And I suppose if one wants to say it was a magnificent retreat, certainly one could argue it was on if the best.

    As to the premise that the allies celebrated subsequent victories, it has nothing to do with the British defeat at Dunkirk. In fact, outside of North Africa, in what major land battles did the British play a pivotal role? They were late on DDay held up by light resistance at the beach. More later.....
    The escape of French, and British Soldiers from Dunkirk was not a defeat. Such a label might be appropriate had those hundreds of thousands of Soldiers been stranded, and left to be either captured or killed. Your assertions of it being a defeat are more just your own opinion, which I do not share. I do see a recurring negativity in your posts, and such a trend might be taken as Trolling. Just some food for thought.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastwind View Post
    I was not making a commitment on the movie, rather the event itself being held in such high esteem. The fact is it was a total defeat and it is true that the retreat helped save the majority of the British land force. And I suppose if one wants to say it was a magnificent retreat, certainly one could argue it was on if the best.
    It wasn't a "total defeat". Otherwise the British would have been annihilated as the Germans were at the Stalingrad Kessel. If the Heer had broken out of the Stalingrad pocket, do you not think the Third Reich would have celebrated this as a miraculous escape?

    You've pretty much just summarized everything that's been said about the 'evacuation', including none other than Churchill that said "wars are not won on evacuations". It guaranteed that Britain could rebuild its shattered forces much faster and showed the fundamental naval and air weaknesses of the Third Reich and buoyed the British as the only nation left standing against Hitler. It also may have influenced Hitler to commence his disastrous Barbarossa planning. So yes, it was a significant event that deserves some celebration as the British only thought they'd get out around a tenth of the final number...

    As to the premise that the allies celebrated subsequent victories, it has nothing to do with the British defeat at Dunkirk. In fact, outside of North Africa, in what major land battles did the British play a pivotal role? They were late on DDay held up by light resistance at the beach. More later.....
    Well for starters, the British faced the vast majority of German armor in Normandy while the Americans were penned in by fortified hedgerows. Monty's feint allowed Operation Cobra to break out and crush the German occupation of France...

  11. #26
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Dunkirk was neither a victory or a stalemate. It was a loss, a defeat. We’re there some positive aspects to the loss, yes, some and that does not change the fact that it was a defeat. Your quote from Churchill says it all.

    The British met very light resistance upon landing at Normandy. It was their slow response and lack of organization and initiative that afforded the Germans time to organize a strong counter attack. This is a pattern the hapless British army repeated time and time again through out the course of the war. I knew a former GI who landed at Omaha and proceeded to walk through France, Holland and Germany. He said the British were always late and slow to respond in combat situations. One night, after he and his men had been in continuous contact with the Germans for two weeks, they had finally gotten some rest and were dug in their fox holes waiting on the British who were late as usual. It was two or three in the morning and they were dug in their fox holes sleeping when the British arrived playing bagpipes. The Germans heard the pipes too and opened up with their artillery. From that point forward he had no respect for the British.

    Again, where did the British play a pivotal role in the land war in Europe? What major battles are attributed to the British? Their contribution on DDay was absent or minimal at best. So the British at Dunkirk did not live fight another day, at least not with any real effectiveness. It is a simple fact the the British army contributed far less than they are given credit and I would guess that would be in most if not all theaters in which they fought.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    [QUOTE=Eastwind;198058]Dunkirk was neither a victory or a stalemate. It was a loss, a defeat. We’re there some positive aspects to the loss, yes, some and that does not change the fact that it was a defeat. Your quote from Churchill says it all.




    Perhaps in your opinion it was a loss, and a defeat, but opinions do not make it so.

  13. #28
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Dunkirk was neither a victory or a stalemate. It was a loss, a defeat. We’re there some positive aspects to the loss, yes, some and that does not change the fact that it was a defeat. Your quote from Churchill says it all.

    The British met very light resistance upon landing at Normandy. It was their slow response and lack of organization and initiative that afforded the Germans time to organize a strong counter attack. This is a pattern the hapless British army repeated time and time again through out the course of the war. I knew a former GI who landed at Omaha and proceeded to walk through France, Holland and Germany. He said the British were always late and slow to respond in combat situations. One night, after he and his men had been in continuous contact with the Germans for two weeks, they had finally gotten some rest and were dug in their fox holes waiting on the British who were late as usual. It was two or three in the morning and they were dug in their fox holes sleeping when the British arrived playing bagpipes. The Germans heard the pipes too and opened up with their artillery. From that point forward he had no respect for the British.

    Again, where did the British play a pivotal role in the land war in Europe? What major battles are attributed to the British? Their contribution on DDay was absent or minimal at best. So the British at Dunkirk did not live fight another day, at least not with any real effectiveness. It is a simple fact the the British army contributed far less than they are given credit and I would guess that would be in most if not all theaters in which they fought.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    It looks like the “moderator” is political correct and will not publish my reply as it may not align with their point of view. To the moderator I say is your position so tenuous it will not withstand debate?

  15. #30
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    Default Re: New Film on Dunkirk

    Post this Mr Moderator:

    Dunkirk was neither a victory or a stalemate. It was a loss, a defeat. We’re there some positive aspects to the loss, yes, some and that does not change the fact that it was a defeat. Your quote from Churchill says it all.

    The British met very light resistance upon landing at Normandy. It was their slow response and lack of organization and initiative that afforded the Germans time to organize a strong counter attack. This is a pattern the hapless British army repeated time and time again through out the course of the war. I knew a former GI who landed at Omaha and proceeded to walk through France, Holland and Germany. He said the British were always late and slow to respond in combat situations. One night, after he and his men had been in continuous contact with the Germans for two weeks, they had finally gotten some rest and were dug in their fox holes waiting on the British who were late as usual. It was two or three in the morning and they were dug in their fox holes sleeping when the British arrived playing bagpipes. The Germans heard the pipes too and opened up with their artillery. From that point forward he had no respect for the British.

    Again, where did the British play a pivotal role in the land war in Europe? What major battles are attributed to the British? Their contribution on DDay was absent or minimal at best. So the British at Dunkirk did not live fight another day, at least not with any real effectiveness. It is a simple fact the the British army contributed far less than they are given credit and I would guess that would be in most if not all theaters in which they fought.

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