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Thread: Multiculturalism - Yes or No

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Multiculturalism - Yes or No

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    Regarding wittmann's ... anatomy, maybe we need to view this poetically. Perhaps he means that he exercises his powers by bending over trouserless, and setting fire to his mighty f**ts , producing a prodigious stream of flame ? Some of his posts In Here certainly have enough flammable gas in them ... Yours from the Napalm Factory, JR.
    One of the few things I recall from five years at university is the worthy Le Petomane, courtesy of the student newspaper which educated us on such curiosities rather than the largely forgotten academic instruction which the university provided. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_P%C3%A9tomane

    Anyway, if witmann tried to rape a woman with a burst of flame he'd certainly confirm his abilities as an arsonist, but still fail, even trouserless, to qualify as a rapist, or even attempted rapist. (Apologies to all the rabid feminists accusing me of making light of rape. I'm not. I'm making light of witmann.)
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Multiculturalism - Yes or No

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    Fascinating article from the Merry Young Land of Oz. Mr Aly has some interesting views. I think he has a point about "Europe" not having tried multiculturalism. Nonetheless, it has sort of happened in many European countries, albeit in rather unsatisfactory ways. Debate on issues of inward migration and related matters have been confused Up Here for a long time. Advocates of integrationism - viewed Here as being in opposition to multiculturalism - have tended to have the stronger voices, notably in France and Britain. It might be remarked that in practice, political leaders (other than in France, perhaps) tend to have a confused understanding of the fundamental issues, and tend to advocate multiculturalism and integration simultaneously, or serially as different "problems" arise. There is also an all-too-real fear in the establishment that mass inward migration needs to be avoided for fear of the likely reaction of their voters. Perhaps we should not be surprised that Europe's leader have made a high hash of dealing with the current migration crisis, and show little sign of improving their response to the situation.
    One of the elephants in the room is the brilliant ability of a truly democratic state to undermine itself from within by creating, albeit unintentionally, electorates which require their representatives to conform with what are nationally minority views but sometimes critically important to a political party chasing a few seats to get it into government.

    Add to that the power of donations to political parties, which donations can be massive when funded by crime.

    So we end up with some stunningly bad decisions, in my country anyway, to, for example, give citizenship to bastards who should have been (and in due course probably will be) shot for their involvement in organized crime, or support for the right of, say, soft skinned Muslims to be offended by everything they don't like and paranoid, usually evangelical, Christians to express their crazy views such as that our defence force is "one step away from adopting Sharia lawlessness". http://catchthefire.com.au/2016/02/s...pp/#more-16082

    Politicians, being by nature venal and self-serving and prepared usually to sacrifice their mothers on the altar of ambition, who represent such constituencies will necessarily bend their limited and shallow principles to ensure that they get elected and re-elected. Regardless of whether or not the people making noise in their ears are truly representative of the community the politician purports to represent.

    We end up with a tension between the dominant aims and actions of a given political party / coalition in government or opposition and the influence of special interest groups and electorates. Special interest groups can be ignored when they don't have a major impact on electorates, but they won't be when they do and the margin between winning and losing enough seats to win government is narrow.

    The problem for Europe in particular with its recent influx of Muslim migrants is whether it gives them the right to vote and ensures their ability to influence local politics, although not necessarily adversely to existing customs, or refuses to give them that right and creates in Europe a larger class of predominantly Arab Muslims resentful of the West, where they now happen to live but see themselves as discriminated against.

    It was probably considerably simpler when the Moors confined themselves to Spain and southern France.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Multiculturalism - Yes or No

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    Fascinating article from the Merry Young Land of Oz. Mr Aly has some interesting views. I think he has a point about "Europe" not having tried multiculturalism. Nonetheless, it has sort of happened in many European countries, albeit in rather unsatisfactory ways. Debate on issues of inward migration and related matters have been confused Up Here for a long time. Advocates of integrationism - viewed Here as being in opposition to multiculturalism - have tended to have the stronger voices, notably in France and Britain. It might be remarked that in practice, political leaders (other than in France, perhaps) tend to have a confused understanding of the fundamental issues, and tend to advocate multiculturalism and integration simultaneously, or serially as different "problems" arise. There is also an all-too-real fear in the establishment that mass inward migration needs to be avoided for fear of the likely reaction of their voters. Perhaps we should not be surprised that Europe's leader have made a high hash of dealing with the current migration crisis, and show little sign of improving their response to the situation.

    I am a bit conflicted on these issues myself, but at least I hope I can recognize them. I think, given the tenor of European public opinion (integrationist/exclusivist on the whole, that there is very good reason to fear social disruption in some countries due to mass migration. This is true not least in Germany, where increasing hysteria on the matter is clearly rising. Frau Merkel appears helpless (there's a first) to control this situation. I said before that she signed her own political death warrant when she raised Liberty's Torch; if things go on as the have recently, she will be lucky to make the next election. The European Union is not looking too healthy, either. At the same time, I live in the heart of Dublin's "little Lahore" - certainly multicultural, and quite a pleasant place to live. That having been said, one can see in my vicinity one of the worst features of what passes for "multiculturalism" in France, Britain and so on - the effective ghettoization of immigrant communities which are inadequately connected with the domestic community. Trouble in store, possibly ...

    Regarding wittmann's ... anatomy, maybe we need to view this poetically. Perhaps he means that he exercises his powers by bending over trouserless, and setting fire to his mighty f**ts , producing a prodigious stream of flame ? Some of his posts In Here certainly have enough flammable gas in them ... Yours from the Napalm Factory, JR.
    W/111 is away for Months, then shows up for a day or two expressing the aforementioned evil Humors before another lengthy disappearance. Much as a 7 yr. old boy will soap a window, ring the doorbell, then run away giggling to himself.
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 02-01-2016 at 10:48 AM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Multiculturalism - Yes or No

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e06N...outu.be&t=1081
    What a strange new religion !

    Dogs of war, learn a few lessons...

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Multiculturalism - Yes or No

    Trump wins decisively in "liberal" New Hampshire. On the Democrat side, things seem to be in a bit of disarray, as Sanders decisively defeats Clinton. Remains to be seen, however, how the "socialist/independent" Bernie will go over in places like North Carolina and Nebraska. A Trump versus Sanders general election ? Unlikely but, at this stage, not impossible.

    Looking back over this thread - it is years since I read Enoch Powell's infamous "Rivers of Blood" speech. Mind you, he never said "Rivers of Blood". What he actually said was -

    "For these dangerous and divisive elements the legislation proposed in the Race Relations Bill is the very pabulum they need to flourish. Here is the means of showing that the immigrant communities can organise to consolidate their members, to agitate and campaign against their fellow citizens, and to overawe and dominate the rest with the legal weapons which the ignorant and the ill-informed have provided. As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."

    Typical classical reference from an erudite Classicist. The phrase is drawn from Virgil's "Aenead", where the Sybil makes a prophecy of "Bella, horrida bella, Et Thybrim multo spumantem sanguine" - "War, terrible war; and the Tibur flowing with much blood".

    It is unlikely, from unrelated evidence, that Powell was himself racist - although the speech itself contains ideas that are racist and even quasi-fascist. It should be remembered that he spent much of the 1940s in India, where he witnessed the murderous inter-communal violence surrounding the independence and partition of old India. Nonetheless, to make his point (opposition to the Race Relations Bill) which he believed would increase discrimination against both "native" and immigrant communities, he employed anecdotes and terminology that count as "racist" and totalitarian.

    Reading the speech again is disturbing. The assertion that many immigrants would be uninterested in integration with the "native" community, would establish themselves in ghettoes, and would organize to resist integration initiatives has, uncomfortably, been borne out by time, albeit not to the extent that Powell feared.
    Things have gone well beyond the "Sikh" campaign to which he refers (which related to the relatively minor question of whether the practice of Sikh males of wearing turbans, whether they were working in factories or as bus conductors). It is interesting that the phenomenon of "immigrant community organization" is most conspicuous in the Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi communities, the Muslim elements in particular. A current side-effect of this semi-insulated, ghettoization of much of this community is that it facilitated radicalization of a small element within the community. It is, perhaps, fortunate that Islamic leaders in the UK have been vigorous in resisting radicalization. Nonetheless, what the UK has ended up with is, not integration, but with a chaotic, unplanned situation of "accidental multiculturalism". Disturbingly, this is exactly what old Enoch was warning against. Still to early to say whether he had a point ... but I would not rule it out. Yours from the Golden Temple, JR.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Multiculturalism - Yes or No

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    Trump wins decisively in "liberal" New Hampshire. On the Democrat side, things seem to be in a bit of disarray, as Sanders decisively defeats Clinton. Remains to be seen, however, how the "socialist/independent" Bernie will go over in places like North Carolina and Nebraska. A Trump versus Sanders general election ? Unlikely but, at this stage, not impossible.

    ...
    Of note, Sanders was widely expected to win by even a greater margin I think. His state neighbors New Hampshire and his anti-establishment theme sort of mirrors center-rightist Trump coming from the left. I actually worked in Vermont for a short time and stayed in New Lebanon, NH while working there. I also have family in New Hampshire. I would characterize it as a very diverse state politically speaking with the sort of cliche New England liberal elite coupled with working class conservative "hard hat" types in the various industries there. I suspect the thing that all political stripes share in NH is sort of a libertarian streak. After all, the state motto was/is "Live Free, or DIE!!"...

    BTW, Vermont is very much the same. While many see it as a very Blue, liberal Democratic state, there is also a wide swath of very die hard conservative working class types that contrast the university professors and leftist emigres from New York. In fact, if you go to small town Vermont, one is almost transported back to the 1940's or 1950's with the plain white general stores, restaurants and gas stations all-in-one...
    Last edited by Nickdfresh; 02-10-2016 at 10:33 AM.

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