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Thread: Magna Carter 1215

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Magna Carter 1215

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    Et cum Spiritum Tuum ! Best regards, JR.
    "Spiritum" or "spiritu"?

    'Tuum' or 'tuo'?

    Nominative, Accustive, Ablative etc; Singular or Plural; Gender; etc, etc?

    Anyway, Bravo32 said 'Pax vobiscum' which translates as "Peace be with you" which did not, down here at least when we had a proper Latin Mass before tone deaf 1960s / 1970s nuns and dopey bearded juvenile priests with cheap guitars singing toneless modern rubbish displaced the organ and tuneful choristers in the choir loft, elicit the response "et cum spiritu tuo" as that was the response to "Dominus vobiscum" ("The Lord be - or 'is' - with you").

    Bravo32 seems to me to have made the conciliatory statement "peace be with you" to which the appropriate conciliatory response would be "et cum tuum" as reference to Bravo32's soul or the Holy Ghost (as we used to call it before it became the Holy Spirit, possibly following the cinematic success of Ghost Busters) does not require "spiritum" or 'spiritu".

    (And, no, I didn't do this off the top of my head. I had to look up some of the Latin stuff, and it doesn't make any more sense now than it did when in the ancient past I tried to learn how decline a semi deponent verb, 'n' shit. What I recall of Latin is
    1. Britannia insula est.
    2. Latin is a language
    as old as old can be.
    It killed the ancient Romans,
    and now it's killing me)

    Back on topic, maybe the Romans and medieval Euro types thought up the Magna Carta ideas before they were enshrined in Magna Carta. http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/c...urnal_articles
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 05-01-2015 at 11:35 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Magna Carter 1215

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Back on topic, maybe the Romans and medieval Euro types thought up the Magna Carta ideas before they were enshrined in Magna Carta. http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/c...urnal_articles
    Back in the pub, a short while ago, I was having similar thoughts. Something I might look into at some point.

    That's quite an interesting article. I particularly liked its reference to English common law, which made my ears *****-up (no idea why) with thoughts of Athelstan and beyond. Cheers.
    Last edited by 32Bravo; 05-02-2015 at 06:04 AM.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  3. #18
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    Default Re: Magna Carter 1215

    In his book The Origins of the English Parliament 924 – 1327, J.R. Maddicott argues that any debate as to the origins of the English parliament must begin with Athelstan.
    Athelstan, who reigned from 924 – 939, was the first of the Saxon kings to rule over what we might recognize as a united England. His power was so great that even those
    to the north and west of his empire would have to pay an annual tribute.

    The size of the empire made it necessary to form a series of assemblies chaired by ealdormen (earls). Traditionally, these assemblies were referred to as the ‘Witan’, the Wisemen,
    which fits with the idea of elder men. Maddicott suggests that this is misleading, as the name was traditional and not necessarily a reflection of the members’ age. He also suggests that
    ‘assembly’ is a better description. However, much of the way in which the assemblies functioned relates back to the old Germanic and Carolingian conventions, in which the ‘mallus’,
    a form of court, accompanied the assemblies. In the mallus, freemen played the role of suitors and judges under the supervision of the king’s representative. The Carolingian connection,
    if any, might suggest one example of how Roman law crossed over into English common law.

    Many of the charters issued by the assemblies contain long witness lists with place-dates. This enables us to identify the locations and dates of the assemblies, their frequency and the names
    of those attending. Naturally, the accuracy of some of this information might be suspect. For instance, the scribe might have filled the page with the names of the people he thought ought to
    be present, or maybe there were more attendees and he ran out of room for all of them and, therefore, those listed may be the more important of the attendees. Nevertheless, both the Witan
    and the Mallus, were based on a broad social span of political participation. In this context they were to a degree representative of people and place centuries before our present time of elections
    and constituencies until, come 1066 when the usurpation of the crown led to regime change and eventually the drafting of the Magna Carta.

    To what extent we can assume that Anglo-Saxon assemblies, their conventions and their effect on English common law influenced those who drew up the Magna Carta we can’t say for certain,
    but it isn’t beyond the realms of probability.
    Last edited by 32Bravo; 05-03-2015 at 03:51 AM.


    "Although God cannot alter the past, Historians can"


    Samuel Butler


  4. #19
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    Up in the land of the Yoopers.
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    Default Re: Magna Carter 1215

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    "Spiritum" or "spiritu"?

    'Tuum' or 'tuo'?

    Nominative, Accustive, Ablative etc; Singular or Plural; Gender; etc, etc?

    Anyway, Bravo32 said 'Pax vobiscum' which translates as "Peace be with you" which did not, down here at least when we had a proper Latin Mass before tone deaf 1960s / 1970s nuns and dopey bearded juvenile priests with cheap guitars singing toneless modern rubbish displaced the organ and tuneful choristers in the choir loft, elicit the response "et cum spiritu tuo" as that was the response to "Dominus vobiscum" ("The Lord be - or 'is' - with you").

    Bravo32 seems to me to have made the conciliatory statement "peace be with you" to which the appropriate conciliatory response would be "et cum tuum" as reference to Bravo32's soul or the Holy Ghost (as we used to call it before it became the Holy Spirit, possibly following the cinematic success of Ghost Busters) does not require "spiritum" or 'spiritu".

    (And, no, I didn't do this off the top of my head. I had to look up some of the Latin stuff, and it doesn't make any more sense now than it did when in the ancient past I tried to learn how decline a semi deponent verb, 'n' shit. What I recall of Latin is
    1. Britannia insula est.
    2. Latin is a language
    as old as old can be.
    It killed the ancient Romans,
    and now it's killing me)

    Back on topic, maybe the Romans and medieval Euro types thought up the Magna Carta ideas before they were enshrined in Magna Carta. http://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/c...urnal_articles
    All of this Latin serves to remind me of the immortal, and inspirational words of sister Mary knuckles..... (words that might yet be useful in this day and age)
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