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Thread: China Versus American Military?

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    Default China Versus American Military?

    now most people say we can win a war with chinafor me i doubt we can even invade there countrythe reason beingfirst there population is 3x of ourswe rank in the 300 to 400 million will theres is in the billions
    no u say that suppior military strategy and technolgy can win it
    but infact we cant

    in ww2 normandy is a perfect example
    german soldiers were better equipped and better trained and seen battle
    USA had crappy weapons and bad armor and not that good training as to compare to the germans
    wave after wave of men broke threw german lines on the beaches
    show that even better trained men cant hold of wave of men charging at you
    encluding if they got machine guns
    now u say missles am i right?
    they have missles to
    now u fire missles kill couple millions they fire at you kill couple millions
    now look who has the population to keep on fighting war
    even tho america has better training out numbering a man 4 to 1 there is no way we could over come a force of that magnitude
    bec china can keep drafting men there birth rate is way higher then ours
    plus out econmy suck theres is rising more countries will take side with china and not come into the war
    the reason be china is one of the world biggest trader plus most companies have factories there
    that could affect all the worlds econmy
    the usa wont use nukes will democrats are in the white house more diplomacy will try to take place
    but in a even of a war china numbers and it current economy and technology and education going up china will soon be above america

    if you can persuade me that USA can please enter it i would like to hear your arguments
    this is for a paper

    o yea all u military guy who answer this
    yes the navy can hit a target in what 2 or 3 hours but can u while ur battling no it will take longer just to get there
    so dont be saying o we can get to this place fast and take that person out
    the world's technolgy is up to date
    they have missles to
    dont u say we can invade china bec we cant unles u want to lose all the marines. beach invasion is impossible they have enough men to defend there land

    sorry for my spelling im really tired
    but please enter ur comments i need some counters to my paper

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Not sure where you're going with this,you speak as though you are in the U.S. but list your location as Australia, and are posting from China. That's kinda curious. But for the sake of an answer, open War between the U.S. and China would mean the end of civilization World wide. No one is naive enough to believe such a War would remain confined to those two Nations, it would envelope the entire Planet very quickly. It would end many times over the "couple millions" of lives you spoke of. Who might emerge as the winner ? also an easy answer, no one. The poisoned, and wrecked, and useless Planet that remained would be no sort of prize. I'm not trying to sound dramatic, just attempting to paint a realistic picture for you. It would also adversely impact Honeyclock's bottom line.

    I would recommend that you find ,and read this book, it may still be available, it will give some idea of what to expect. Level 7 (novel) by Mordecai Roshwald, 1959.
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 12-09-2014 at 11:11 AM.

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Following tankgeezer's example i will simply say, that even if this war could happen it would not be US-China war, it would be Nato-China war. Nuclear disaster, in matter of hours, in all over the planet. It would probably lasted for couple of hours, or for a year and then it would stop in the blink of an eye with nuclear. No winner, probably no survivor from these two. Nuclear winter and stuff.
    Respectfully Kall

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    -Homer

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Quote Originally Posted by boxing day View Post
    i doubt we can even invade there country
    Why would America, or any other country, want to invade China?

    Quote Originally Posted by boxing day View Post
    china is one of the world biggest trader plus most companies have factories there
    that could affect all the worlds econmy
    Which is precisely why it is it contrary to America's, and all other Western nations', interests and, on the other hand, China's interests to start a military conflict. It's a mammoth economic lose-lose for both sides. Even Putin in his wildest expansionist delusions would be unlikely to consider retaking any part of China.

    Quote Originally Posted by boxing day View Post
    this is for a paper
    Suggest you answer: "This is a stupid topic for a paper at any level requiring informed and balanced analysis, and it's a waste of my time dealing with an idiotic proposition about America invading China. Here is a photo of my sock drawer, which has been neatly arranged in a more productive use of my time than writing a meaningless paper about America invading China."
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Quote Originally Posted by tankgeezer View Post
    Not sure where you're going with this,you speak as though you are in the U.S. but list your location as Australia, and are posting from China. That's kinda curious.
    Not really.

    Guess who's buying a good deal of Australian real estate with a large appetite for more?

    Some of the better suburbs here are increasingly being populated by Chinese from overseas, as are our universities for a different reason as our universities fleece the better off Chinese wanting a Western degree.

    Although I do hope the topic for the OP's paper hasn't been set by an Australian university, as this would demonstrate that our university standards have fallen much further to pass foreign fee paying students than even the most pessimistic observer would expect. And I can tell you with confidence that our academic standards have dropped noticeably to allow foreign students to buy their degrees to keep our universities afloat.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Rather strange head post. I have to second those who have already replied. I am reminded of a comment that was apparently made during US "war cabinet" discussions during the Cuban missile crisis (shudder !). It was to the effect that President Kennedy was desperate to do anything possible to avert a war with the USSR because, in the diplomatic words of the minute, "an exchange of nuclear weapons would not be to the advantage of the United States". That is to put it very mildly. Some years before, then Vice-President Nixon tried to impress visitor Nikita Khruschev (then Secretary General of the Soviet Communist Party) by remarking, "Do you know, Mr Secretary, that the United States has the nuclear weapons capacity to destroy the entire urban population of the USSR twice over ?". Khruschev, with a laugh, replied, "That is all fine, Mr Vice-President - as long as we have the capacity to destroy you only once !". This was true in spades by the time of the Cuban crisis - something that Kennedy's bone-headed generals seem to have had difficulty in grasping. In the end, Kennedy did a deal with the Soviets - very reasonable, actually, on both sides - that the Soviets would happily withdraw the Cuban missiles so long as the US withdrew similar nukes of its own based in Turkey. If you think about it, that was a very sensible deal for both sides, although I do not recall it being publicized at the time.

    The climate for an "all-out superpower confrontation", involving use of strategic nuclear weapons, is now much worse. True, arms limitation treaties entered into since the fall of the Soviet Union have somewhat reduced the extent of deployment of strategic nuclear weapons. However, it has perhaps become too easy to forget that both the US (and allies) and Russia still have strategic forces easily capable of turning each other - and indeed the rest of the world - into a large burned-out ball sheathed in green glass, many times over. As for China, it is probable that its strategic nuclear forces are on a somewhat smaller scale. That having been said, there is every reason to believe that it is sufficiently substantial to destroy both Russia and the USA several times over. I believe that the West and China still have some way to go in reaching a reasonably friendly modus vivendi, and the outbreak of Cold War II between Russia and the West is an unhelpful complication. However, there is every reason to enhance positive relations, and a massive disincentive to do anything that might provoke a strategic-level nuclear war between any two of the main players. There is everything to gain from enhanced understanding, and - literally - absolutely everything to lose should anyone be crazy enough to move towards the Red Button. Everyone with half a brain knows this - but the Cuban precedent shows that it could still happen. Many people have forgotten (or are too young to remember) the Cold War doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction ("MAD") - but the materials of MAD (lots and lots of strategic nukes in the hands of the three major powers) are still with us, with little hope of this situation changing in the foreseeable future. One cannot "undiscover" something; the Genie let out of the bottle by the Manhattan Project can never be put back there. We need to learn to live with this - otherwise we may all die with it.

    Sorry for the long post but, in conclusion, I can only say that I devoutly hope the question of a "hot" war between any of the great powers remains moot ...

    Yours from the Mineshaft Gap, JR.

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    If you think about it, that was a very sensible deal for both sides, although I do not recall it being publicized at the time.
    My recollection is that, at the time, this was kept secret to save American face.

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    The climate for an "all-out superpower confrontation", involving use of strategic nuclear weapons, is now much worse.
    I think it is less, not least because the former communist countries have moved towards capitalist economies (at least for their elites, in some cases, but the elites were generally venal even at the height of communist nations) and the capitalist nations have become more dependent upon the former communist nations, e.g. Russia supplying energy to Western Europe, China supplying trade goods to the West.

    I think the risk of nuclear attack is more likely from minor actors, such as ISIL or its constituent ilk, who are rabid f**kwits not constrained by the sorts of economic self-interest which restrains major nations such as the Western nations, Russia and China. Or, possibly, mid-level actors such as Iran or Pakistan if rabid Islamicist elements get control there, whether of the nation or possibly just to control a launch or export by land or sea. The need for a large bomber has long passed.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    ...
    Some of the better suburbs here are increasingly being populated by Chinese from overseas, as are our universities for a different reason as our universities fleece the better off Chinese wanting a Western degree.

    ...
    That's even happening here in very provincial Buffalo, NY. The University of Buffalo is a magnet for engineering students...

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    @RS* - sorry, Rising Sun, I think I misexpressed myself. By "climate" I meant the climate created by the sheer presence of huge numbers of nukes that, simply, are capable of destroying the world many, many, many times over if things went slightly, er, Wrong. Back in the days of the Cuban crisis, it was merely a question of "many times over". Unfortunately, there is always the possibility that we might blunder into a "Wrong" scenario, however careful everyone is. Even the "General Ripper" scenario is not beyond possibility. We need to live with this but, with the Genie permanently out of the bottle, complete safety is no longer a possibility.

    Yours from the War Room, JR.

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    "YEEE-HAW !!!"

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nickdfresh View Post
    That's even happening here in very provincial Buffalo, NY. The University of Buffalo is a magnet for engineering students...
    I think this replicates the experience of China, and more so Japan, in the latter part of the 19th and early 20th centuries when they sent students to the West to learn how to bring their industries, transport, government and militaries up to Western standards, albeit as a consequence of brutish and bullying Western attitudes and conduct which, although acceptable to the West at the time, forced China and Japan to trade with the West for the West's benefit.

    The difference is that Japan pretty much retained control of its own land while China was reduced to servile status by the onslaught of other powers carving it up for their own purposes, notably the British with the opium trade and eventually Japan grabbing much of China in the prelude to the Pacific War, but in between most of the European powers, America and Russia grabbed their chunks of China.

    China, now resurgent, has a lot of grounds to resent Europe, America, Russia, and Japan, for exploiting it.

    China's best revenge may be to dominate trade with the nations which formerly exploited it and, in time, to dictate the terms of trade much as the West, primarily America and Britain, did with Japan in the lead up to and as one cause of the Pacific War.

    I don't know about other Western countries, but here the bulk of department store goods, clothing, household appliances, electronics, and hardware come from China. Forty years ago we could make all of these things ourselves, while China couldn’t make some of them. Now we can't. We export raw materials to China and they come back as finished goods, often at bargain prices, but with the profit on converting the raw materials into finished goods retained in China. This is testament not to anything adverse in China but to the economic rationalist morons who've had their hands on the levers of our elected governments and bureaucracies for the past thirty years or so, who think that it makes sense to export our unskilled and semi-skilled jobs to low wage countries and then to punish our unskilled and semi-skilled unemployed for not having jobs that aren't there for them because the politicians and the wealthy interests they represent have exported those jobs. And, in perhaps the ultimate insult and insanity, our government now grants special visas to workers from low wage countries to work here in occupations where they are often exploited by foreign and local labour firms. Makes sense to politicians, and the rich, in both countries.

    Meanwhile the Chinese use their growing economic power to, among other things, send their students here to pursue courses our national government has put out of the financial reach of domestic students from modest financial backgrounds. The result? Who's training the engineers, computer scientists, etc for the future, and who's getting the real benefit of this training my nation, run by knaves and fools, thinks is a bonus because of the short term benefits derived from selling overpriced courses to overseas students?

    China deserves to increase its economic power, just as my nation deserves to end up as the poor white trash of Asia when our rich and especially super rich aided by our national governments of both major parties have cut down, dug up and shipped out every natural resource at bargain prices instead of converting them into more profitable finished goods ourselves. At least I should be dead by then.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    @RS* - sorry, Rising Sun, I think I misexpressed myself. By "climate" I meant the climate created by the sheer presence of huge numbers of nukes that, simply, are capable of destroying the world many, many, many times over if things went slightly, er, Wrong. Back in the days of the Cuban crisis, it was merely a question of "many times over". Unfortunately, there is always the possibility that we might blunder into a "Wrong" scenario, however careful everyone is. Even the "General Ripper" scenario is not beyond possibility. We need to live with this but, with the Genie permanently out of the bottle, complete safety is no longer a possibility.

    Yours from the War Room, JR.

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    Might it not be more remarkable that, given the vast array of nuclear weapons and the numerous opportunities for things to go wrong, they haven't been used since 1945 and that this shows a significant degree of reluctance by those possessing them to use them in a MAD world?

    Anyway, I think nuclear weapons are overrated. Sure, one of them can do a heap of damage, but so did conventional bombing by the Allies in Germany and Japan in WWII. Would you rather be in Dresden or Tokyo under 'conventional' bombing or Hiroshima?

    It's the scale of death and disaster attached to nuclear weapons that gets attention, but at the individual level what does it matter? You're still dead, or in countless ways of suffering.

    Would you rather be eaten to death by ants, or a lion?

    At the mass level, yes, perhaps we can reduce the planet to a largely uninhabitable irradiated desert, but at the individual level how much worse is that then being severely gassed in WWI?

    If I had to die, I'd prefer to be at ground zero in a nuclear attack than slowly dying from gas in WWI, or phosphorous burns in WWII, or napalm burns in Vietnam.

    What is so much worse about most of the G20, because that's about where the main action will be, being reduced by nuclear attacks to Hiroshima and Nagasaki on a larger scale? Or Hamburg or Dresden or Tokyo with 'conventional' weapons?

    It's all unfair to innocent civilians, but so what? Wars always have been. All that changes is the scale.
    ..
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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    The deal Pres. Kennedy struck with the Soviets did require both sides to classify, and hold secret any information about removing the Jupiter Missiles in Turkey, (and maybe some in Italy, though I have no confirmation of this part) It was a face saving move, and made Kennedy look a bit tougher to the American public than he may actually have been, but it was the wise choice to make. In the later Cold war we were told that weapon systems of a regional, or global nature were meant more, or rather had more value as bargaining chips, or game pieces on a board than a tool for actual use. But in the event the chips did not fall well, they might be resorted to.

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    China may well end up as the dominant economic power. Seems to me that, these days, just about everything manufactured is manufactured in China - except perhaps goods from absolute bargain-basement locations like Vietnam and Bangladesh. It could be a rough enough ride for everyone, however. Neither the US nor the EU have the least intention of just letting this happen, and their entrenched position at the top of the world economy means that China will have an uphill struggle. Even at this moment, China is discovering the drawbacks of stashing a lot of the money made by its workers in manufacturing in US Government bonds; gets a bit problematic when (in the absence of anything better) the US Dollar appreciates substantially in relative value. No doubt there will be (more) troubles ahead.

    The long-term problem for the West may be that, as it increasingly divests itself of manufacturing capacity, and becomes ever more dependent on services, domestic and foreign, to supply economic activity and employment, it may in the end not prove possible simply to survive on services. This leaves aside the problem of what to do with the vast number of potential workers who will never be fitted to fill "high-value, high-tech" jobs (or even low-value, low-tech jobs like window-cleaning and flower-arranging). Compounding this is the already very evident phenomenon of the migration of money (value, wealth, whatever) "upwards" into ever-fewer hands. This is already damaging the educated "middle" classes of the West upon whose abilities and skills the "new world in the morning" should depend. A very particular threat is the pressure now being put on such people attempting to provide their children with education to a high standard. A horrible image arises of Western societies increasingly resembling ancient Rome in the High Empire, with a small economic "upper class", employing foreign skilled workers to do such real work as there is, controlling the emproled majority through the distribution of "bread and circuses"; and it is hard to see such a society surviving very long in rapidly changing conditions. We could, of course, resort to slavery - anything is possible; the future is largely a closed book.

    As to cosying up to the Chinese in the meantime -


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    Our President, H.E. Dr Michael D. Higgins ("Ireland's first Leprechaun President), currently on a State visit to the Land of the Yellow Peril, with Chinese President Xi Jinping, following their review of several hundred Chinese soldiers and marines in the Great Hall of the People, Beijing today. President Xi - who visited Ireland a few years ago when still Vice-President, accepted the invitation for a return visit to Ireland "if he has the time". Fair chance he will make the time - he appears to have enjoyed himself here, last time out.

    While the ceremonial aspect of the visit is of course most obvious, Michale Twee is accompanied by our Minister for Finance (arguably the second most powerful figure in our Government), the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and a vast entourage of industrial development bureaucrats and representatives of industry and finance, making this a trade mission vast even by Irish standards. It is just 35 years since Holy Catholic Ireland opened direct relations with "Communist" China; but we have certainly learned to snuggle up to them in the meantime ...

    Yours from Tiananmen Square, viewing the tanks, JR.
    Last edited by JR*; 12-09-2014 at 10:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    I think this replicates the experience of China, and more so Japan, in the latter part of the 19th and early 20th centuries when they sent students to the West to learn how to bring their industries, transport, government and militaries up to Western standards, albeit as a consequence of brutish and bullying Western attitudes and conduct which, although acceptable to the West at the time, forced China and Japan to trade with the West for the West's benefit.

    The difference is that Japan pretty much retained control of its own land while China was reduced to servile status by the onslaught of other powers carving it up for their own purposes, notably the British with the opium trade and eventually Japan grabbing much of China in the prelude to the Pacific War, but in between most of the European powers, America and Russia grabbed their chunks of China.

    China, now resurgent, has a lot of grounds to resent Europe, America, Russia, and Japan, for exploiting it.

    China's best revenge may be to dominate trade with the nations which formerly exploited it and, in time, to dictate the terms of trade much as the West, primarily America and Britain, did with Japan in the lead up to and as one cause of the Pacific War.

    I don't know about other Western countries, but here the bulk of department store goods, clothing, household appliances, electronics, and hardware come from China. Forty years ago we could make all of these things ourselves, while China couldn’t make some of them. Now we can't. We export raw materials to China and they come back as finished goods, often at bargain prices, but with the profit on converting the raw materials into finished goods retained in China. This is testament not to anything adverse in China but to the economic rationalist morons who've had their hands on the levers of our elected governments and bureaucracies for the past thirty years or so, who think that it makes sense to export our unskilled and semi-skilled jobs to low wage countries and then to punish our unskilled and semi-skilled unemployed for not having jobs that aren't there for them because the politicians and the wealthy interests they represent have exported those jobs. And, in perhaps the ultimate insult and insanity, our government now grants special visas to workers from low wage countries to work here in occupations where they are often exploited by foreign and local labour firms. Makes sense to politicians, and the rich, in both countries.

    Meanwhile the Chinese use their growing economic power to, among other things, send their students here to pursue courses our national government has put out of the financial reach of domestic students from modest financial backgrounds. The result? Who's training the engineers, computer scientists, etc for the future, and who's getting the real benefit of this training my nation, run by knaves and fools, thinks is a bonus because of the short term benefits derived from selling overpriced courses to overseas students?

    China deserves to increase its economic power, just as my nation deserves to end up as the poor white trash of Asia when our rich and especially super rich aided by our national governments of both major parties have cut down, dug up and shipped out every natural resource at bargain prices instead of converting them into more profitable finished goods ourselves. At least I should be dead by then.
    You should watch the movie "Tomorrow when the War began" takes place in Australia, and involves some of the conditions mentioned. Here's a clip. http://youtu.be/f_KhErNyiq8
    In truth, it's not a very good movie, and borrows heavily from Red Dawn. But it's something to do if you're feeling lazy some day.
    Last edited by tankgeezer; 12-09-2014 at 04:39 PM.

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    Default Re: China Versus American Military?

    Quote Originally Posted by tankgeezer View Post
    You should watch the movie "Tomorrow when the War began" takes place in Australia, and involves some of the conditions mentioned. Here's a clip. http://youtu.be/f_KhErNyiq8
    In truth, it's not a very good movie, and borrows heavily from Red Dawn. But it's something to do if you're feeling lazy some day.
    Haven't seen it, and won't. Which is not to say it's any more fantastical than most Hollywood armageddon / splatter movies and which is not to say that they can't be entertaining, if one suspends disbelief for the duration of the film.

    I'm vaguely familiar from a distance with the the Tomorrow series on which the film is based, in the sense that I know the books are popular as are earlier books by the prolific author John Marsden who writes for a child / adolescent audience. As does most of Hollywood, although, unlike Marsden, they're not aware they're doing it.

    There are, and have been for some years, some interesting parallels in Australia's trade with China and pre-Pacific War trade with Japan.

    The essence is that Australia is a big source for China, and pre-Pacific War for Japan, of natural resources run by stupid Australians, notably those in government and the super rich who control much of those resources, who can't see beyond the primitive capitalist chop it down; dig it up; ship it out.

    The difference is that nowadays China can buy our resources in an open market where Japan was constrained before the Pacific War by various restraints flowing from the West's response to the 1930s Depression; general Western contempt for and exploitation of Japan in many trade matters; and then the economic restraints imposed upon Japan by the West following Japan's actions in China 1931 onwards. The irony is that the nations imposing restraints on Japan for its military adventures in China had generally been the beneficiaries not so many decades before of their own military adventures in China for their own benefit, to the cost of the Chinese people and its government.

    Conversely, China had not in the past couple of centuries engaged in the rampant acquisition of foreign and often distant territories that the European and American powers did, such as Egypt by Britain and the Philippines by the United States as recently as the early 20th century (Yeah, I know it's more complicated than that, but in both cases the major powers acquired control essentially by force of arms.) Instead, China, whose rulers like Japan's wanted to be left alone by the foreign devils, was forced by Western and other powers to submit to their demands for trade stations in China, as also happened in Japan in the same era.

    Which brings us to the great irony that Germany and Japan in wars of expansion in WWII weren't doing any more than the other major powers had been for a century or two beforehand, except that following WWI the noble ideals of the League of Nations outlawed such conduct although, curiously, allowing the major powers to hold their conquests and colonies.

    Leaving aside Japan's war crimes and crimes against humanity in these campaigns (as we should leave aside, say, Britain's in Palestine until it was handed over to the Israelis who gained it by a campaign of war crimes and crimes against humanity), there is a magnificent irony in France and Britain being offended by Japan grabbing their colonies in, respectively, IndoChina and Malaya/Singapore.

    All things considered, China has for the past couple of centuries to 1949 been the innocent victim of exploitative military and economic assaults by the West and other powers, notably Russia, pre-WWII.

    And, all those things considered, China is behaving with great restraint as its power grows.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 12-10-2014 at 08:22 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

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