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Thread: Islamic State of Mind.

  1. #46
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    It has nothing to do with the West, or anything outside Islam.
    i agree on this statement,. or any sane Muslim individuals,. that is why me and majority of us are do as much or at least to stay away from any sort of violence.

    I mentioned early on my previous posts that,. some militant clerics using the western condemnation as their tools to attract or sway more Muslim to support their cause. I just hope more people left aside on whatever the background on the criminals,. as the for the bad person,. he/she will do bad in whatever belief he/she is in.
    "My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack. If it is a vessel equal to yours, attack. And if it is stronger than yours, also attack."

    — Stepan O. Makarov, Russian Admiral

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    I agree with both. I have plenty of Muslim neighbours, and I am sure that many of them are, secretly, worried sick that their children or nieces and nephews might succumb to the blandishments of ISIS, Al-Queda or some other nutty fringe terrorist group, and head off for Syria or (the new Fronts) Libya or Nigeria. Just yesterday, it was reported that three British (born and bred) Muslim teenage boys were picked up in Catalunya, in the course of an apparent attempt to get to Syria or Libya to sign up as fighters with ISIS. They were only picked up in time because of timely notification by their families to the British authorities that they had failed to return on time from a prayer service. A little further back, three teenage Muslim girls from London actually succeeded in the same trip; apparently, they did get from Turkey to ISIS territory in Syria. God help them.

    I am far from ascribing responsibility for these events to Muslim communities in general - whether in Britain, Ireland or indeed Indonesia. However, it is surely urgently necessary for those Muslim communities to take action to protect their youth from themselves when it comes to taking dangerous, self-destructive ISIS adventures. These young people are taking enormous risks with their lives and futures in embarking on such journeys. Britain, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Turkey, Indonesia ... they can only do so much to protect their young Muslim citizens from such adventures. Only their own communities can take decisive action to prevent this. Perhaps Imams - and I am referring principally to Sunni Imams - need to take heed to the rights of parents in their communities in this matter. There will always be nutty Islamaniac Imams who promote the poisonous message of ISIS and its like. However, theirs is not, as I understand it, a correct, proper and (if one may say) canonical message of Islam. Authorities and clerics need to co-operate to head off such tragedies, as far as may be possible. JR.

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    I have plenty of Muslim neighbours, and I am sure that many of them are, secretly, worried sick that their children or nieces and nephews might succumb to the blandishments of ISIS, Al-Queda or some other nutty fringe terrorist group, and head off for Syria or (the new Fronts) Libya or Nigeria. Just yesterday, it was reported that three British (born and bred) Muslim teenage boys were picked up in Catalunya, in the course of an apparent attempt to get to Syria or Libya to sign up as fighters with ISIS. They were only picked up in time because of timely notification by their families to the British authorities that they had failed to return on time from a prayer service. A little further back, three teenage Muslim girls from London actually succeeded in the same trip; apparently, they did get from Turkey to ISIS territory in Syria. God help them.

    I am far from ascribing responsibility for these events to Muslim communities in general - whether in Britain, Ireland or indeed Indonesia. However, it is surely urgently necessary for those Muslim communities to take action to protect their youth from themselves when it comes to taking dangerous, self-destructive ISIS adventures. These young people are taking enormous risks with their lives and futures in embarking on such journeys. Britain, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Turkey, Indonesia ... they can only do so much to protect their young Muslim citizens from such adventures. Only their own communities can take decisive action to prevent this. Perhaps Imams - and I am referring principally to Sunni Imams - need to take heed to the rights of parents in their communities in this matter. There will always be nutty Islamaniac Imams who promote the poisonous message of ISIS and its like. However, theirs is not, as I understand it, a correct, proper and (if one may say) canonical message of Islam. Authorities and clerics need to co-operate to head off such tragedies, as far as may be possible. JR.
    It ain't just children from Muslim families or backgrounds who are attracted to ISIL etc. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-1...-state/6314260

    I think that a substantial proportion, quite probably most, people attracted to ISIL etc are mentally disturbed in some way. That is certainly the case of the young idiot in the link above and of the prominent Australians who have gone to fight with ISIL, notably this piece of scum. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...810-3dh8q.html
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1227010748884

    If ISIL didnt' exist, they'd just as likely engage in some other pointlessly violent act such as massacring schoolmates or workmates, or just confine themselves to relatively harmless rants on blogs and Facebook.

    ISIL etc is undoubtedly a significant and dangerous problem for non-jihadist Muslims and the rest of us, but so is whatever it is that causes people to be attracted to organised lawless violence. That is an old problem, going back through the Red Brigades, Baader-Meinhof Gang, to the 19th century anarchists and so on.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    We should not forget that a lot of the organized lawless violence in the world results from simple, traditional motives such as illicit profit. The whole international illicit drugs trade is based, ultimately, on lawless, arbitrary violence - Nidge and the Boys, and the Way they might look at you. I am inclined to the view that this is a separate silo from that occupied by "political" terrorists, although it has to be conceded that there is a substantial overlap in their purely "commercial" activities.

    RS* - very disturbing links. The young man who is alleged to have blown himself up in a suicide bombing in Iraq comes across as seriously disturbed and emotionally needy. There was a time when severely disillusioned youth gravitated to marginally disruptive movements such as the "Mods/Rockers" phenomenon of early 1960s Britain, or towards more pacific "alternative lifestyles" such as the Hippies, Goths and so on. It is indeed perplexing to see young people - troubled, certainly, but conventionally brought up and educated in the West - drawn into a profoundly alien form of rejection and defiance. I do not mean conversion to a particular religion (it happens; it probably always has). I mean being persuaded to take exceptional efforts to join in a violent, vicious terrorist enterprise, masquerading under the cover of religion, involvement in which is likely to end up with them being used as human ammunition by the cynical/crazed leaders of this enterprise. Hippies can (and usually did) cut their hair and take a bath. Goths can leave off with the makeup and hair dye. Vulnerable, disturbed will not get the opportunity to press the reverse button on their suicide vests - there isn't one.

    Never got as far as being a Mod or Rocker, myself; nor a Goth for that matter. Perhaps I am not best placed to judge. It is just beyond my comprehension how a young person, however disturbed and alienated, could adopt such an extreme, exotic, alien mans of expressing their alienation. Given the amount of alienation around at the moment, this demands consideration by the civilized world - Christian, Islamic or whatever". What are we, as a civilization, doing to some of our children ? Best regards, JR.

  5. #50
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    kinda glad, Chief of Staff of TNI ensuring to fight ISIS and looking to widen the cooperation with the west (USA)
    Chief Of Army expressed that TNI will scrutinized areas that considered full of radical Islam Movement.
    http://nasional.kompas.com/read/2015...t.Perangi.ISIS

    some action been done to prevent further widespread of ISIS, 6 returning Indonesians from ISIS conflict areas are being detained.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUvl09vj5v0

    Base on Indonesia's Geographical aspect, it is very important neighboring countries like Australia, Singapore and many others should directly involve in assisting Indonesia fighting these terror group. By conquering Indonesia as their stronghold; imagine the manpower supply and resources and direct access to the neighboring countries.
    "My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack. If it is a vessel equal to yours, attack. And if it is stronger than yours, also attack."

    — Stepan O. Makarov, Russian Admiral

  6. #51
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    Base on Indonesia's Geographical aspect, it is very important neighboring countries like Australia, Singapore and many others should directly involve in assisting Indonesia fighting these terror group. By conquering Indonesia as their stronghold; imagine the manpower supply and resources and direct access to the neighboring countries.
    The risk to Indonesia and surrounding countries is not that Indonesia is the world's largest, by population, Muslim nation but that the largely moderate Muslim population of Indonesia could be hijacked by the jihadists, much as the mullahs took over Iran and the Taliban took over Afghanistan, both of which nations were previously predominantly moderate Muslim.

    Turkey is definitely at risk of being controlled by a more virulent strain of Islamists, although not necessarily jihadists.

    The problem in all these places, as with Germany being controlled by the Nazis, is that the bulk of people don't want regimes based on extreme or violent political or religious doctrines, but the extremists and violent people determined to control a people or place tend to be in a minority but still overwhelm the majority because the majority isn't motivated and unified by whatever version of evil it is that motivates and unifies the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Boko Haram, and ISIL to impress their vile creeds and control upon others.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 03-21-2015 at 05:26 AM.
    ..
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    Montesquieu

  7. #52
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    Base on Indonesia's Geographical aspect, it is very important neighboring countries like Australia, Singapore and many others should directly involve in assisting Indonesia fighting these terror group.
    I agree entirely, but unfortunately there are problems inside and between some of those countries which make it unlikely that there will be the necessary level of unified action against jihadists.

    So far as Australia is concerned, the clumsy idiot who is our Prime Minister has a rare talent for offending people inside and outside Australia with ill-considered statements and actions, and most recently Indonesia, again, over the proposed executions of Australian drug dealers and the running sore of refugees coming to Australia by boat from Indonesia.

    Add to that the post-war histories of Indonesia, Malaysia and Australia which have involved, admittedly low level, armed conflict with Indonesia by the other two and various current difficulties and disputes around human rights, West Papua, refugees, Australia spying on the former Indonesian President and his wife (or, more accurately, incompetently being caught at it, as all countries spy on each other) and other issues and events which make the relationships less than fully trusting and co-operative. Then there are local issues in Indonesia and Malaysia directly relevant to national governments not wanting to offend important segments of the local Muslim populations and electorates, such as fundamentalist Muslim communities in Aceh in Indonesia and in some Malaysian states.

    I'm sure that most ordinary people in Indonesia, Malaysia and Australia share a common opposition to terrorists of any type, and currently to the most visible and threatening ones of the jihadist type, and just want to live their lives in peace, but the unpleasant people who like to exercise power over others as politicians, or as jihadists, pursue different aims based on power and self-interest.

    I don't see regional or other responses to jihadists having a useful and enduring effect until the world deals with the source of these problems, being Iran on the Shia side and, much more so, Saudi Arabia on the Sunni side as supporters and exporters of terror, along with some significant sideline players such as Pakistan.

    It is futile to try to kill a snake by throwing pebbles at it. You have to break its back or, better still, cut its head off.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 03-21-2015 at 08:19 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  8. #53
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    What was it that the late Chairman Mao said - "All power comes down the barrel of a gun". If you are the moderate having the gun pointed at you, you are unlikely to ignore it. In the longer term, the "barrel of a gun" analysis has its problems but, in the short term ... JR.

  9. #54
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    What was it that the late Chairman Mao said - "All power comes down the barrel of a gun". If you are the moderate having the gun pointed at you, you are unlikely to ignore it. In the longer term, the "barrel of a gun" analysis has its problems but, in the short term ... JR.
    Try this local Islamic school principal's analysis for one that has problems.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the...25-1m70ba.html

    This confected idiocy does as much, probably more, damage to local Muslims genuinely opposed to ISIS and jihadists than do ISIS and jihadists.

    It reinforces suspicions by many of us, based on a couple of decades or so of statements by Muslim leaders to their own people which contradict their increasingly improved public relations gloss, that they are not fully loyal to Australia and operate in some anti-Western fantasy which perpetuates their notion of victimhood at the hands of the West, including Australia as their host country, rather than the reality that their overseas co-religionists are much more the victims of their Muslim brothers and sisters in Muslim nations.

    Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia astonishes the world by actually taking up arms in its own interests against the Yemeni insurgency. Admittedly, the Houthis in Yemen are Shias and obviously deserving of attack by the Wahabi Saudis, who oddly enough respond to the much greater Sunni ISIS threat by merely building a fence to keep them out. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-out-Isil.html

    It would be nice if all we had to do to keep out the likes of ISIS and sundry jihahists was to build a fence.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  10. #55
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    Try this local Islamic school principal's analysis for one that has problems.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the...25-1m70ba.html

    This confected idiocy does as much, probably more, damage to local Muslims genuinely opposed to ISIS and jihadists than do ISIS and jihadists.
    I wonder sometimes on western Muslim community, they like to mingle on constipation theory, really,. i meant,. it just hard to us- the common Muslim- to digest, who think they re got more knowledge on international affair than us.

    About the Stayan's PM,. yeah i was wonder myself, why would he put our relation in jeopardy only for couple of drug smugglers. We have been in good terms in relation to fight against terrorism especially after the Bali blast,. twice, and this continue on immigration issue.
    "My rule is: If you meet the weakest vessel, attack. If it is a vessel equal to yours, attack. And if it is stronger than yours, also attack."

    — Stepan O. Makarov, Russian Admiral

  11. #56
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    I wonder sometimes on western Muslim community, they like to mingle on constipation theory, really,. i meant,. it just hard to us- the common Muslim- to digest, who think they re got more knowledge on international affair than us.
    Your comment raises some interesting issues.

    First, Muslims who come to Western countries must be aware that they are coming to cultures, societies, economies and legal systems just about the opposite of the various systems which operate in the different Islamic nations.

    Second, those Muslim immigrants have chosen to reject their old countries for opposite ones to which they come.

    Third, I suspect that, as with many other migrations from different cultures (e.g. Italians and Yugoslavs immediately post-war to Australia) they end up falling into different types of migrant. One type adopts the new country as their home for the rest of their lives and, without necessarily abandoning their own culture in the new land, fits in to the new society. The other type lives in a ghetto, whether geographic or cultural, and tries to re-create the old country in the new one, as has happened notably in parts of France and Britain. The second type is never going to be happy in the new country.

    Fourth, the second type often has ambitions of making their fortunes in the new country and returning to retire in the old country. What they don't realise in many cases is that, as with many Southern European post-WWII migrants to Australia, the land they left thirty or forty years before has moved on and they've been maintaining a culture that doesn't exist any more in their homeland. Simple example is many Italians and Greeks who returned to their countries from Australia in the 1980s or so and found to their horror that, for example, girls were going out alone and wearing mini-skirts while the migrants in Australia had been maintaining strict controls on their daughters around the same time.

    Fifth, applying the foregoing to some Muslims who have migrated to the West, they, like some post-WWII Southern European migrants to Australia, are shocked by the culture and conduct in their new country. This encourages them to reject and despise the society and people of their new country while staying in it because it is a lot better than their old country.

    The result is that there are in various migrant communities in the West, and not just Muslim ones, elements which are hostile to the community in which they live and unrealistic about the communities they left for a better life in the West.

    If we go back about a century, there were Irish Catholic elements in Australia which weren't all that different to some Muslim elements here now, in the sense that those Irish in Australia were an alien people and a distrusted religion in a Protestant dominated nation who demonstrated their disloyalty by support for armed Irish insurrection against the English which was seen by the Protestant majority in Australia and England as coming in part from their Catholic loyalty to a foreign Pope.


    Quote Originally Posted by gumalangi View Post
    About the Stayan's PM,. yeah i was wonder myself, why would he put our relation in jeopardy only for couple of drug smugglers. We have been in good terms in relation to fight against terrorism especially after the Bali blast,. twice, and this continue on immigration issue.
    He's not putting our relations in jeopardy for a couple of drug smugglers.

    There have been sustained efforts by other Australian politicians and diplomats to avoid the executions, and they have been conducted with and received by Indonesia in proper fashion, as are Indonesia's efforts to oppose its own citizens being executed in other countries.

    Abbott puts the relationship in jeopardy because he is a clumsy, big mouthed, blustering, bullying fool who should be kept in a dark soundproofed room with no communication with the outside world to prevent him doing more damage inside and outside Australia. Indonesia got off lightly compared with his idiotic attack on Russia and Putin http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...14-115pp0.html and, as the self-proclaimed Prime Minister for Indigenous People, on indigenous people who want to live on their traditional lands http://www.theguardian.com/australia...oices-comments

    Abbott's stupid comments on the drug smugglers, linking the executions to foreign aid to Indonesia, etc managed to damage the good work and good relations between ministers and agencies in Australia and Indonesia on a range of issues. As you, and I hope other informed Indonesians, will see from his conduct as illustrated in the links above, the man is a loose cannon who narrowly survived a recent attempt by dissidents in his own party to remove him as Prime Minister and learnt nothing from it so far as continuing his bullying style. http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...14-13ekeh.html
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 03-28-2015 at 06:38 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  12. #57
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    Default Re: Islamic State of Mind.

    So Saudi is building a "Rabid-Proof Fence" to keep ISIL out of its northern territories ? A bit rich, coming from the Saudis in any event. Also, have the Saudis not noticed that this approach to excluding the barbarians has seldom worked, especially in recent times. It is not just the "democratic" West that often finds itself ruled by idiots.

    As regards Mr Mallak - apart altogether from the radicalization point, he seems to be committing a more fundamental crime against education, that of failing to assimilate his students into the principles of sound thinking. What he seems to be peddling is a species of pernicious double-think propped up by truisms incorporating "fundamental" logical fallacies and double-think, unfounded self-supporting (that is, unsupported and often insupportable) arguments. Encouraging young people, anywhere, to adopt this type of thinking is abominable. I know that this is an unsupported/insupportable unhistorical observation - but I rather think that the great Muslim scholars of old Baghdad and Cordoba would have agreed with me. In sadness, JR.

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