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Thread: When did WWII really begin?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    I feel it was in !936 when Hitler can the majority of power in Germany. I know the Japanese had invaded several countries before that but I feel that it doesn't really make it a World War until several countries in different continents are fighting.

    Life is short... We should then cherish every sec of it.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    It is recognised that the World War II began on Sept. 1, 1939,at this day Nazi Germany attacked Poland,ie at the moment of the Nazi aggression in Europe.

    But we know it began a little earlier - in 1938 when Germany took Czechoslovakia,or even earlier, in 1936 in Spain.And here a difficult question appears: how to determine the date of the World War ?

    You can link the start date to the date of the first aggression. As we remember, not only Germany took part in WW2 but also it's allies Italy,Japan and some satellites, and France, Britain, the Soviet Union, the United States and China at the side of anti-Htler coalition. The war between China and Japan started in 1937 and ended in 1945. Why we do not believe that the World War II started in 1937 ?

    You can take as a starting date the time when more than two world powers came to war. But this happened at 3-4 th September 1939, when Britain and France have declired war on Germany, only from this point the local German-Polish conflict turned into a global war.

    So we see that the date of the beginning of the war is blured, the dating is quite unclear. The 1st of September,1939 is a common date only because they want to make some countries victims of aggression (like Poland) and Germany the only instigator of the war.

    Because if the World War 2 started at 3-4 th of September 1939, it was Britain and France who turned a local conflict into the world war. And if we start from the date of an encouraging the aggressor - that is from the time when Britain and France allowed Hitler's annexation of Bohemia and Moravia - here it turns out that Poland is not a victim but one of those who is responsible for the outbreak of the Second World War, because Poland took part in the partition of Czechoslovakia along with Germany and Hungary. France and Britain in fact approved the partition of Czechoslovakia , and hence the preparations for further aggression.

    Of course, this does not remove the blame from Germany, because Germany was the most active instigator of the war, and because it acted as aggressor, constantly attacking neighboring countries.

    So Germany is the absolute aggressor wich is guilty of the begining of the war - but not the only one.Just this fact they try to put out of sight with the help of tendencious selection of the date of the WW2 start.

    In my opinion the war started when the first clash of the units of the main fighting powers happened - at 29th of October,1936 in Spain near Madrid when Soviet tank batalion attacked Italian unit.Soviets fought against Germany and Italy in Spane since 1936 and against Japanese in China since 1937.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    WW2 began as a political, social, military and moral entity when Otto von Bismark "tricked" Republican France into declaring war, then defeated her in one of the swiftest and most decicive major campaigns in history.

    The French did not forget so easily.

    they diplomatically siolated the young Germany, played on Kaiser bill's fears, sought alliances with old freinds of Germany, and manged to convince Russian politicians that their Tsar needed to declare war "for Serbia" when Russian borders and their foreign interests were not at stake.

    From the moment the "patch-up" Treaty of versialles was signed, (a document that none of the signing powers agreed on, and that Germany and austria=Hungary were excluded from the negotiations), from that moment forward, another round of Great War was on the cards.

    No-one, not even the German peole themselves, realised that their propaganda moves for re-armament would bear such bitter fruit. Germany had been attempting to build a "new society", at least, thats what they were telling the rest of europe. But, it was, in reality, more of a return to an autocratic past and a militant society that Bismark had wanted very much to leave behind.

    If it wasn't Adolf hitler, some other poltician in the "new" Germany might well have called for Versailles to be repudaited. The Generals and industrialists that backed National socialism did so with re-armament at the top of their wish list. Adolf was seen as someone they could use and discard at their will.

    Hitler had other ideas, and saw the old General Staff as much an obstacle to the new German military as anything. He backed new ideas and methods, more for their propaganda value than anything, and spread fearful lies as to Germanie's actual combat potential. the Luftwaffe was to be the tool that would, in the Douhetian sence, force surrender of major powers without the need for long campaigns of attrition. The "Short War" was a concept backed by hitler for financial reasons, and for lack of long term supply of raw materials. there would be no more "materialschlact" like Verdun.

    The French and Polish camapigns seemed to bear this idea out.

    The Battle of Britian revealed what a narrow field of service the Luftwaffe was actually equipped and trained for.

    But, their morale was sky high after beating France seemingly so easily.

    Propaganda took over. Adolf had seen the soviets and Communism as the main enemy for as long as he had been speaking publically.

    For Germany, it was now or never to knock the Russian bear for six. They had done it in Frnace and Poland. The Soviets were, obviously, more intent on internal purging, and Finland demonstrated that their system was rotten to the core.

    Fuhrer Directive No.21 said it best..."We have only to kick in the door, and the whole rotten structure will come tumbling down."

    But, their racial policy and a sense that they were fighting people who were not worthy of being called human being, robbed any chance of anti-stalin elements and eastern european minorities from being of any use or substance to German ambitions.

    Lack of mass production, lack of oil and other raw materials, lack of directtion for the campaign after Barbarossa failed, all combined to bring down the Nazi house of cards.

    all touched off by Bismarkian machiavellianism.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkson View Post
    WW2 began as a political, social, military and moral entity when Otto von Bismark "tricked" Republican France into declaring war, then defeated her in one of the swiftest and most decicive major campaigns in history.

    The French did not forget so easily.

    they diplomatically siolated the young Germany, played on Kaiser bill's fears, sought alliances with old freinds of Germany, and manged to convince Russian politicians that their Tsar needed to declare war "for Serbia" when Russian borders and their foreign interests were not at stake.

    From the moment the "patch-up" Treaty of versialles was signed, (a document that none of the signing powers agreed on, and that Germany and austria=Hungary were excluded from the negotiations), from that moment forward, another round of Great War was on the cards.
    If we're going to look at those influences, we must also look at Germany's and Italy's late establishment as nations and thus late entrants in the quest for colonies and their profitable resources, way behind France and Britain which had in various ways begun to nibble away at the Ottoman Empire and exploit older conquests and territories around the planet long before Germany and Italy became nations.

    This, along with various logistical and geo-political limitations (e.g. lack of control of the Suez Canal and oil resources in the Middle East) necessarily confined Hitler's lebensraum ambitions to Europe and, combined with racial supremacy ideas, focused very much on exploiting the untermensch in Eastern Europe.

    The result was that what became WWII was originally just another major European war, with a major invasion of Russia and an excursion into North Africa, much as Napoleon had done much earlier when France was a nation long before Germany and Italy emerged as nations.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  5. #20
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Silhouettes of 15 tanks, 15 ultramodern machines were barely seen in the pre-dawn twilight. Behind there was a night march, and ahead... ahead there was a line of defense of the fascists. What was there for a Soviet tank company? A 26 kilometers forced march wasn’t too much trouble for them, but what about the infantry forces, what if the people are exhausted? What if they will stay behind the tanks? Was the intelligence information accurate enough? Did the fascists manage to equip the firing points on the captured line? A few hours later everything will be clear.

    It's time. Motors roared. Captain Armand tanks started forward.

    Paul Matissovich Arman was not French. He was born in Latvia, but during the teenage years lived in France for several years, and his first identification document got there, hence the unusual name. Before the war he was the commander of a tank battalion in Bobruisk.

    The fascists had no anti-tank weapons. "Machine gun is the worst enemy for infantry" - it is written in the instruction, so the tankers combed seen firing points with fire and track layers. The infantry did stay behind. The linger is impossible, aircraft or artillery will find and bring down fire. Retreat? Captain Armand was swift in decisions - and tanks rushed forward. Here are the outskirts of the town. Nobody expected the Soviet tanks raid, and there are no fascists in the town according to intelligence. Tanks rushing with open hatches with Arman in the lead vehicle.

    Suddenly an Italian officer runs from the corner, waving and shouting something. "Took us for friends" - Arman realized. Tank hatches shut. Fascist's mechanized infantry battalions had no luck that day. Rolling wheels on the pavement, flying truck debris, survived soldiers hiding behind stone walls. But the fascists came around quickly, and the flying bottles with gasoline appeared, the survived guns are pulled to the rooftops. Commander knows well that armor is not meant for fighting within the city, otherwise it will be burned immediately. The new solution - go ahead. Tanks fly through the town; on the outskirts they sweep two artillery batteries.

    And here are the Italian tanks. Brief duel - and three Italians are burning, the remaining five retreated. Our tanks were not hurt. It is risky to continue to act in the enemy rear, and ammunition is running out. Troops permeate the front line again, only this time it is the opposite direction

    Infantry has not breached the defenses of the fascists that day. After the tanks left, the survived guns came alive and the enemy planes swooped ... Fight failed. And even though Armand can be proud of himself ... what will he report to the commander? But the brigade commander Krivoshein is not upset. Things are not so bad. Tanks are intact, losses are small, and most importantly - fascist attack stopped. And Colonel Voronov reported of a success on the secondary direction. Two busy railway junction were taken.

    Bright stars lit in the black sky . Seriously wounded turret gunner just died - got out to cut the telephone wires. The iron clangs, shadows from portable lamps rush here and there - techs mess about with tanks.

    The day of October 29, 1936 comes to the end.

    Yes, yes. This is not a typo. Time - October 1936, place - Sesena town, south-west of Madrid.



    I know about the fate of the Hero of the Soviet Union Ernest H. Schacht only this :"died in 1941".

    The Hero of the Soviet Union Paul Matissovich Arman died in 1943 at the Volkhov Front.

    But do you remember who was the commander of Arman in his first fight in Spain? The brigade commander Krivoshein?

    At may,3,1945 in "Pravda" were printed two photo.One was a famous photo of the red banner over Reichstag,at the other photo were General Krivoshein's tankmen near Reichstag.



    So ask him,who fought against fascism since the first till the last day of the war,ask him when did the Second World War really begin.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Good point Uncle J. Name:  thumbsup.png
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Size:  1.1 KB

  7. #22
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by garm1and View Post
    Good point Uncle J. Name:  thumbsup.png
Views: 416
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    No it's not.
    Yes there were ideological hostilities between fascist (and falangist and nazi) and communist (and socialist and anarchists and..), but the core is one of SPANISH civil war. Not Stalin. Not Hitler. Not Mussolini.
    (or dare you claim that we are now living in constant GLOBAL World War 3 because of all the continuing proxy wars between russian and US and Jewish and Arab and French and-and-and influences ?)

    And Spain took no proper part in the fightings after 1939...

    Or what about the civilian famine and torture of Ukrainians (holodomor) in 1932 ? Or do you think Stalin did not send in troops and armoured cars to GET the crops from the farmers ? Farmers simply give all their livestock and crops away when a big man with a big moustache somewhere far away "asks" for it ?

  8. #23
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    First of all,I don't know what the holodomor myth has to do with WW2.

    As for Spane...It was not just an ordinary civil war.

    The Republic could easily cope with the rebellion, and in most of the territories it was suppressed, although almost the entire army participated in it. The fascists had a pretty unfortunate start, as a rebellion head General Sanjurjo was killed in a plane crash, fascists forces were geographically separated and they did not have access to the Mediterranean Sea. Their main strength was in Morocco and the Strait of Gibraltar was blocked by the Republic fleet. The rebellion was on the verge of collapse.And that was the moment when the Axis Powers came in. In the first days Franco had all the Italian and German transport aircraft at his disposal, and the rebel army turned out to settle in Spain.

    The hardest thing was that operational and strategic superiority of the fascists was obvious throughout all the Spanish war. Carefully coordinated strikes on the most painful, the most vulnerable points of the Republic began very quickly. Offensive in Extremadura (from the north, south and from Portugal) joined the separated territories of the Nazis. Occupation of San Sebastian and Irun cut Northern front from the French border, and capture of Teruel nearly cut the Republic in half. And the attack on Madrid ... The Republican command has not carried out such operations during the whole war, and the fascists did so in the first three months, operating with very different forces. A successful leadership of coalition troops is top performance for generals, and it is unlikely that Franco was able to perform such a level. The brains of the German General Staff were inspected.

    The fascist army had not much Spaniards, even with Moroccans and criminals of the Foreign Legion, in the early days of the war - 90,000. And the fascists from other countries had: Germans - 50,000 (Commander Colonel Warlimont), Italians - 150 000, Portuguese - 20 000 . They got pretty brazen, especially after Munich, they even sometimes did not change shape. And these were efficient regular units.

    So by any reckoning the first Axi's agression in Europe happened in Spain in 1936 -1939,that is a fact.

    Some more details on Soviets in Spain.

    Even knowledgeable people sometimes believe that there were only councils. Well, yes, there were councils. There were two councils out of the 59 Heroes of the Soviet Union in the Spanish campaign (since the decree of December 31, 1936): Batov – a council and a troop commander, and Smushkevich – a pilot-council. Others were pilots, tankers, artillerymen, submariners. 19 of 59 - awarded posthumously. And there were also signalers, gunners, scouts, saboteurs, in general, all specialists that should be in the army. There were engineers, organizers of arms production, shipbuilders, of course, doctors and many others. And yes, councils... here's a quote from the council’s memoirs: "Seeing that the crew of the nearest guns lost its commander and gunner, I rushed to the gunners and helped open fire ... several tanks caught fire ... enemy attack bogged down ... versatile training of combined arms commanders of the Red Army contributed to the implementation of a wide variety of military duties."

    Among these "various military duties" the most famous were the actions of our tankers and pilots. In defensive battles in autumn 1936 - winter 1937 Soviet tank brigades and battalions have played an important role. Among the most frequently mentioned are the defense of Madrid, M.P. Petrov battle tank battalion in the area of Las Rozas and Majadahonda and the storming of the strategic height Pingarron. Behavior of Soviet soldiers and officers, then known as "councils" or " internationalist volunteers" exemplifies the anti-fascists. Not uncommon were cases where crews of lined tanks went into battle with guns removed from the tanks. And during the battle at Jarama, as noted by the participant of these fights Malinovsky (later Minister of Defense, Marshal of the Soviet Union), "republican tanks ... have complete dominance on the battlefield" And in Guadalajara counter battle on March 18, 1937 when the Italian corps was destroyed Soviet tank brigade decided the outcome.

    But let us remember the date - October 29, 1936.

    Here are news facts about the operation October 28, 1936: "On October, 28 our speed bombers made their first combat sortie. Three squadrons were formed, 9-10 aircraft each. They made a bomber group. It was headed by A.E. Zlatotsvetov, the chief of staff was P.A. Kotov. Apart from bomber group, there was created a fighter group (3 squadrons of I-15 and 3 - of I-16) and, subsequently, an assault group (30 aircraft)... Command of the 1st Bombardment Squadron – E.G. Schacht, Swiss revolutionary, lived in the USSR since the 22nd, a graduate of Borisoglebsk military aviation school". He led the first combat mission on October, 28.

    So, Ernest H. Schacht, 28 October 1938.

    With the advent of speed bombers the situation in the Spanish sky changed. The speed bombers even with a full load easily evaded any fighter. On combat missions they often were unaccompanied.

    In the autumn of 1936 only on the Madrid front 27 of 160 Soviet pilots were killed in action.

    So, the first battles of Soviet troops with fascists: October 28, 1936 – first sortie (Speed Bombardment Squadron commander - Major E.G. Schacht), and on the 29th - the first encounter with the fascists on the ground (Tank Company T-26, commander - Captain P.M. Arman).

    Maybe the decision to bring the Soviet troops into force was secret? It turns out it was not. October 23, 1936 the Soviet government released an official statement in which it was said that under German and Italian aggression in Spain the Soviet Union would not remain neutral. What do you mean during the war when you say you do not remain neutral? It means you go to war.

    So, October 23, 28th and 29th. Of course, these days are incomparable to June 22,1941 and May 9,1945, but they also need to be remembered.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    The Second Front.

    Since autumn 1937, our forces entered the war with Japan, the third power of the Axis, in China. Mainly aviation and combined arms commanders as councils operated there, as well as operations officers, but they were not the only ones.

    All the forces went immediately into battle. For example, the squadron of V. Kurdyumov. They make a dangerous flight through the high desert (V.Kurdyumov died during the flight), seven of I-16s on the day of arrival in Nanjing (21 November 1937) had hit a fighter and two bombers over the airport. Speed bomber squadrons of Kidalinskiy and Machin bombed Shanghai airport and Japanese ships in the roads on the next day after arrival. They opened the account of Japanese warships destroyed by drowning, including the first Japanese cruiser destroyed during World War II.

    Almost four years of war in China abounded with events, but the most well known actions were of pilots. By the way, in the history of aviation there are not so many operations similar to the raid of Bombardment Group of F.P. Polynin in Taiwan on February 23, 1938, or the sinking of a Japanese aircraft carrier (10 tons) by a bomber group of T.T. Hryukin in winter 1938-1939.


    ....Japanese air base on the island Formosa (Taiwan) served as a major transportation hub and a rear base for the Imperial Air Force who fought in China. Matsuyama was far behind the front line and thus was considered invulnerable to Chinese aviation reinforcements. New squadrons of samurai arrived here and were completed. Airbase was a vast concentration of spare parts, ammunition and aviation fuel (by some accounts - a three-year supply of fuel, intended for combat operations in China.

    A group of Chinese bombers already laid down on the combat course. Pilots saw a huge airbase area –they already could distinguish red circles on the wings of aircraft that stood in two rows. Chinese pilot Fyn Po looked around and noted with satisfaction that no enemy fighter still got off the ground. Anti-aircraft guns were silent: the Japanese obviously did not expect a raid and mistook them for their own pilots.

    Plane swayed slightly. Pilots watched the dropped bombs and managed to see fountains of explosions in the middle of the parking. "Well done, Fedoruk" –a thought flashed through his head when Fyn declined to the sea. And another groups led by James Prokofiev and VasilyKlevtsov were already moving towards the next target.

    Japanese airbase was hidden behind a veil of dense smoke. Anti-aircraft guns fired in vain, trying to get the aircrafts heading to the north. No Japanese fighter managed to intercept –on that day, February 23, 1938, General Fyn Po and his loyal comrades completely burned the largest Japanese airbase Matsuyama



    A now day view of Taipai. Just this place Soviet pilots bombed in 1938.

    The air attack had huge consequences: Chinese Air Force aircraft operated by Soviet pilots rained down 280 high-explosive and incendiary bombson the airfield. Over 40 aircraft and many sets of aircraft and most of the airfield property have been destroyed on the ground. Governor of the Japanese province Taihoku (Taiwan) was removed from his post. The commandant of the aerodrome, as an honest samurai, did hara-kiri. In Tokyo the panic started – they decided that Chiang Kai-shek got strategic and naval aviation, which could affect the Japanese plans and affect the outcome of the war.

    The bombers committed an unprecedented 7-hour air raid at a distance of over 1000 km, without fighter escort. They successfully refueled at a secret airfields and in the evening returned to Hankow without a single loss. For maximum distance the whole flight took place in the economy mode, in thin air - at an altitude of over 5,000 meters. Without oxygen masks, in full radio silence - with the full voltage of human power and technologies.

    On arrival General Fyn Po (Captain Fedor Polynin) reported the successful completion of the Air Force raid.



    Fedor Polynin.


    The Soviet Union gave to China 1185 combat aircraft (777 fighters, 408 bombers) and 100 training biplanes in the period from 1937 to 41. Dozens of tanks and 1,600 artillery systems were also delivered. Five thousand Soviet citizens visited China on a business trip - military advisers, engineers, technicians and volunteer pilots.

    Fyodor Polynin later recalled that when he volunteered he assumed that they would be sent to Spain, but instead of hot sky of southern Europe the pilots were sent to the bloody mess in Asia. According to official figures, 227 Soviet pilots laid down their lives to defend the freedom of the Chinese people.

    The daring raid of February 23, 1938 was just one of the high-profile operations conducted by Soviet pilots in the sky of China. Among other achievements was a "raid" on the sacred soil of Japan, produced on 20 May 1938. Proceeding from the airport in Nanjing, Soviet heavy bombers-3 whirlwind swept over the island of Kyushu, dropping dozens of boxes with antiwar leaflets content. Operation caused shock among the Japanese command. The answer was the Japanese military provocation, which grew into a massacre at Lake Khasan.

    In March 1938, the pilot Fyn Po once again has shown himselfoff–he again sortied to the ultimate range of 1,000 km, with refueling in Suzhi. This time he destroyed abridge over the Yellow River.

    In April 1938 the Soviet and Chinese fighters clashed with a large group of enemy aircraft over Wuhan. The Japanese lost 11 fighters and 10 bombers. But there were casualties on our side - 12 aircraft did not return to their base.

    And also we should remember the destructive bombing of Hankow airfield that occurred on October 3, 1939. A group of 12 long-range bombers-3 under the command of military pilot Kulishenko got to their target deep behind enemy lines, flying on 8700 meters height in full radio silence - and unleashed a hail of bombs on a cluster of Japanese aircraft. Place known as the "base W», ceased to exist.

    According to the Chinese investigation, the sudden air strike destroyed 64 Japanese aircraft, killed 130 people, burneda bulk storage. Japanese casualty figures are more modest - 50 aircraft burnt, among the dead there were seven high-ranking officers, Japanese aircraft commander Admiral Tsukuhara was injured. Such large-scale damage from a relatively small number of aircraft in the shock group can be explained by the well-chosen time of the raid –there was a forming up and a ceremony of new aircraft acquisition.

    There is also a different legend of the sinking of an aircraft carrier "Yamato Maru" in the Yangtze River - unlike credible evidence of bombing Japanese airfields, this aircraft carrier story still raises many questions. The names of Japanese warships had never had the prefix "... Maru".

    At the same time, this does not exclude the fact that the "aircraft carrier" was a remake of the civilian steamer and belonged to the Air Force - there is evidence of the use of such "mobile airfields" on major rivers in China, where there was no well-developed network of ground bases. If this is confirmed, the Soviet pilots may be the first who managed to sink the aircraft carrier ship (even so small and slow-moving as "Yamato Maru").

  10. #25
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    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by garm1and View Post
    Attachment 7090

    Many historians believe the Second World War began on Sept. 1, 1939 when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Others feel it was Sept. 18,1931 when Imperial Japan invaded Manchuria. And some think it was a continuation of the First World War, with a break in the middle. Myself, I'm going with 1939. I do feel there was some unfinished business from the WWI, and the Japanese committed some serious aggression against the Chinese. But Hitler went past the point of no return by invading Poland. What are your thoughts?
    I kind of think it was a combination but I suppose strictly speaking it wasn't global until countries from every continent were involved and that has got to be after the Japanese attacks in the Far East and Pacific.

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