Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 25

Thread: When did WWII really begin?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    169

    Default When did WWII really begin?

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	14046_world_war_2.jpg 
Views:	336 
Size:	279.7 KB 
ID:	7090

    Many historians believe the Second World War began on Sept. 1, 1939 when Nazi Germany invaded Poland. Others feel it was Sept. 18,1931 when Imperial Japan invaded Manchuria. And some think it was a continuation of the First World War, with a break in the middle. Myself, I'm going with 1939. I do feel there was some unfinished business from the WWI, and the Japanese committed some serious aggression against the Chinese. But Hitler went past the point of no return by invading Poland. What are your thoughts?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Guildford, England
    Posts
    1,427

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    That depends on another factor as well: Would you consider the Pacific and Afro-European wars as the same conflict, or two separate ones?

    The cases for both are pretty strong: On the opinion that they're the same, of course they are, the main Allied nations (UK and US, to some extent the USSR) were at war with the same powers on both sides of the globe. With the two different conflicts opinion, the only reason that they're considered the same is when the Japanese Emperor declared war on the UK and the US at the same time, and that their adversaries could not come to each other's aid. Without that declaration, it could be argued that they were two conflicts.

    Also, it took China long enough to declare war on Japan, eh? At war since the early thirties, yet they declared war in 1941...
    Last edited by Churchill; 06-16-2014 at 11:28 PM.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Also, it took China long enough to declare war on Japan, eh? At war since the early thirties, yet they declared war in 1941...
    I believe China declared war on July 7, 1937 (the famous "good fortune" of three sevens...). My understanding is this date is the main contender with September '39 for the start of WWII. I think most historians going with 1939 actually put the start of the war as September 3, not 1, to match the declaration of War by France and the UK.
    Last edited by Ardee; 06-17-2014 at 12:01 AM.
    "...we have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Guildford, England
    Posts
    1,427

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Ah, well I was just being lazy, Wikipedia's order of declarations of war during WWII lists it in 1941.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Declaration of war or 1936 when Hitler became Chancellor and set in motion fully events that were already happening. (Many of which had roots in the 1919 surrender accords)

    Re-armament, moving into the Rhineland, calls for annexation of land by various nations (Hitler backing variously Italy, Hungary, Romania, Soviet Union etc etc with claims as it suited him), Anschluss with Austria.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    779

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Just, for the purposes of discussion, to flip this - there is an idea abroad at the moment that the war against the Nazis in Euro-Asia and the war against the Japanese in the Far East and in the Pacific were actually separate wars, tenuously linked by circumstance. Not sure I would entirely agree - but this line of thinking would make 1 September, 1939 the commencement date of the "western" war, with the commencement date of the "eastern" war a question of whether the de facto Japanese aggression against China counted above the Japanese assault on Pearl Harbour. In either case, I have less interest in when war was declared than on the point at which the lead began to fly. Worth noting that Hitler was, in fact, not a great believer in declarations of war; and that neither of the "branches" of WW2 was preceded by any such declaration. Best regards, JR.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    In either case, I have less interest in when war was declared than on the point at which the lead began to fly.
    Perhaps we are wading into the area of semantics. To many historians, I believe the importance of the war declarations is not the legal document, but that they (at least in the case of France and the UK) shifted a regional shooting match into one of much broader scope, involving major powers. In other words, the difference between the start of a war, and the start of a World War.
    Last edited by Ardee; 06-17-2014 at 01:59 PM.
    "...we have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,112

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardee View Post
    Perhaps we are wading into the area of semantics. To many historians, I believe the importance of the war declarations is not the legal document, but that they (at least in the case of France and the UK) shifted a regional shooting match into one of much broader scope, involving major powers. In other words, the difference between the start of a war, and the start of a World War.
    What is a legal document? Is it in the Smithsonian institute with the Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence? Is the declaration based on American say so or Germany say so?.I wonder about this. Have you seen the legal document?
    Wiki is ok. History Channel is ok.
    But WW2 Forum is the BEST!


  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Churchill View Post
    Ah, well I was just being lazy, Wikipedia's order of declarations of war during WWII lists it in 1941.
    Looking further, you are correct. I've checked a few sites, and found no reference to an actual war declaration by China in 1937, just Chiang Kai-shek's refusal to enter into negotiations or a truce, as he done after previous "incidents." I did find reference to China's declaration (on Japan, Germany and Italy) in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. Apologies.

    Yet the date 7/7/37, as the start of the Second Sino-Japanese war, is the preferred date for the "Eastern" start of WWII.
    "...we have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by herman2 View Post
    What is a legal document? Is it in the Smithsonian institute with the Bill of Rights or Declaration of Independence? Is the declaration based on American say so or Germany say so?.I wonder about this. Have you seen the legal document?
    Um, herman, are you feeling alright? Your post makes zero sense.

    If you are asking what a legal document actually is, I'm afraid I will not try to clarify such basic information here and now. If you have mangled the question of whether a declaration of war IS a legal document, yes, unless I'm completely off base, a declaration of war is a legal document.

    Neither the Declaration of Independence nor the Bill of Rights is housed in the Smithsonian Institution. They are housed in the National Archives. They are also totally unconnected to this discussion.

    The rest of your post descends into meaninglessness. If you're referring to the Declaration of Independence or some other American or German document(s), the connection to the topic under discussion is obscure at best. My post did not involve anything "American."

    What we are talking about is: When did WWII begin? The point being made was that the Polish fighting did not become a World War until France and England entered the War on September 3 -- before then, it was just a small little war in a corner of Europe. The entrance of the major powers of France and her colonies, Britain with the Commonwealth (admittedly not always an automatic thing, but as things turned out....) turned the initial small war in Poland into a global conflict, a "World War." In contrast, if France and the UK had NOT declared War, if they had acquiesced to Germany and Slovakia (and then the USSR) dismantling Poland, that war would have remained a minor conflict. WWII would have started at some other time.

    I believe what I just outlined is the thinking of most historians. It certainly was in the past. I hope I've clarified the meaning of my original post for you.
    Last edited by Ardee; 06-18-2014 at 04:04 AM.
    "...we have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,288

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by herman2 View Post
    Is the declaration based on American say so or Germany say so?.I wonder about this.
    Your favourite source illustrates that war may be 'declared' in various ways, frequently without any documentation, legal or otherwise.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declara...g_World_War_II

    The major post-WWII armed conflicts involving Western powers did not involve any declaration of war, e.g. Korea, Vietnam (French and later America/South Korea/ Australia), Falklands, Gulf War, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

    Despite being involved in Korea, Falklands, Gulf War, Iraq, Afghanistan and various other armed conflicts at various levels of intensity from Northern Ireland to Cyprus to Malaya to Kenya to Yemen, Britain last declared war in 1942, on Siam (now Thailand), which illustrates that formal declarations of war, by 'legal document' or otherwise are irrelevant to whether or not a nation is engaged in a war or warlike operations.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,112

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardee View Post
    Looking further, you are correct. I've checked a few sites, and found no reference to an actual war declaration by China in 1937, just Chiang Kai-shek's refusal to enter into negotiations or a truce, as he done after previous "incidents." I did find reference to China's declaration (on Japan, Germany and Italy) in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. Apologies.

    Yet the date 7/7/37, as the start of the Second Sino-Japanese war, is the preferred date for the "Eastern" start of WWII.
    Of course I am correct. Thank You for recognizing this. Apology accepted.
    Wiki is ok. History Channel is ok.
    But WW2 Forum is the BEST!


  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,288

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by JR* View Post
    Just, for the purposes of discussion, to flip this - there is an idea abroad at the moment that the war against the Nazis in Euro-Asia and the war against the Japanese in the Far East and in the Pacific were actually separate wars, tenuously linked by circumstance. Not sure I would entirely agree - but this line of thinking would make 1 September, 1939 the commencement date of the "western" war, with the commencement date of the "eastern" war a question of whether the de facto Japanese aggression against China counted above the Japanese assault on Pearl Harbour. In either case, I have less interest in when war was declared than on the point at which the lead began to fly. Worth noting that Hitler was, in fact, not a great believer in declarations of war; and that neither of the "branches" of WW2 was preceded by any such declaration. Best regards, JR.
    I am inclined to the view that there were several wars, each waged individually by the main Axis partners of Germany, Italy and Japan, which had the misfortune to encounter a combined reaction by the Allies due to the absence of an equally coordinated strategy and operations by the Axis. Here is a 'stream of consciousness' summary.

    1. Japan. It began its war in the early 1930s against China which, after Japan attacked America, would become an Ally. However, up to 1937 there was substantial German military, industrial and financial support for China, which declined rapidly after Hitler decided that Japan was the better horse to back in his coming wars. Encouraged by early German successes in the USSR in the second half of 1941 and American and British oil embargoes, Japan chose to go south at the end of 1941 instead of the alternative of striking into Siberia. This strategy was designed to pursue Japan’s aims of oil acquisition in the Netherlands East Indies and colonial expansion under the guise of the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. A prospect of no critical strategic importance to Japan was to advance through India on land and to expel Britain from the Indian Ocean so Japan and Germany could link up in the Persian oilfields, but it would have been otherwise if there was a combined aim by Japan and Germany.

    2. Italy. Pursued its own ambitions in North Africa and Greece, and dragged Germany in to both campaigns to save it from failure, thus reducing German forces available for Hitler’s main strategy towards the USSR. Consistent with its failure to support Germany etc in WWI, it rolled over in 1943 when faced with some serious fighting on its own land. A handicap on Germany and irrelevant to Japan.

    3. Germany. Began expansion in 1936 with belligerent reoccupation of the Rhineland, and subsequent belligerent excursions into Austria and Czechoslovakia, and armed invasion of Poland, followed by further armed invasions to the west and east. Not co-ordinated with Italy or, later, Japan, despite Germany and Japan having a common interest is securing oil resources which were available in Persia.

    Germany, Italy and Japan were not, like the Allies, a combined force pursuing a common aim against common enemies.

    Those fighting Germany, Italy and Japan were not always identical with the major Allies, notably the Netherlands which was defeated and occupied in Europe but whose government in exile refused to surrender the Netherlands East Indies to Japan and which government still controlled substantial naval and merchant marine resources which would be critical in stopping and turning back Japan’s early advances. Then there were the Vichy French and in particular its navy, a potential dagger at the throat of the Allies.

    Conversely, the Axis powers failed to co-operate by, for example, coordinating a drive by Japan through Ceylon, the Indian Ocean, and India and the Middle East to reinforce Germany striking towards the Persian oilfields and gaining control of the Suez Canal which, around April 1942, was well within Axis grasp given Britain denuding the Mediterranean of major ships to meet the expected threat in the Indian Ocean which, partly through luck by the opposing forces failing to encounter each other and partly through Japan’s victory disease encouraging it to press southwards and westwards towards Australia and Fiji etc to cut off America from a potential strategic base in Australia to counter-attack Japan, which was purely in the interests of Japan and counter-productive to a combined strike at Persia.

    The absence of co-ordination by the Axis powers makes it impossible to view them as a united and cohesive force arrayed against the Allies, while the Allies were exactly the opposite in picking each of them off separately across pretty much the whole of the planet while the individual Axis powers were essentially engaged in large scale regional expansion.

    There can be no greater evidence of the existence of separate wars against the major Axis powers than the separate peace each of them made with the Allies, Italy predictably the first in 1943 and then Germany and Japan a few months apart, for different reasons but essentially because they were defeated, in 1945.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    287

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by herman2 View Post
    Of course I am correct. Thank You for recognizing this. Apology accepted.
    Sorry to learn you're not well, herman, and I hope you get better soon. In the meantime, you might want to recall what a third party said about Coco the Clown in another thread, and consider how it might apply to yourself. Tootles!
    "...we have met the enemy and he is us." -- Pogo (Walt Kelly)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Valhalla
    Posts
    66

    Default Re: When did WWII really begin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ardee View Post
    What we are talking about is: When did WWII begin? The point being made was that the Polish fighting did not become a World War until France and England entered the War on September 3 -- before then, it was just a small little war in a corner of Europe. The entrance of the major powers of France and her colonies, Britain with the Commonwealth (admittedly not always an automatic thing, but as things turned out....) turned the initial small war in Poland into a global conflict, a "World War." In contrast, if France and the UK had NOT declared War, if they had acquiesced to Germany and Slovakia (and then the USSR) dismantling Poland, that war would have remained a minor conflict. WWII would have started at some other time.
    This is absolutely correct.
    Britain and France had pandemic fear of Germany's expansion and Hitler was breaking international law.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •