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Thread: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

  1. #1
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    Default Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    I was recently watching a TV show on North Africa. The show claimed the Sherman tank was superior to the Panzer IV. I'm not sure I would agree, what does everyone think? I'm sure the Sherman Firefly was better, so please do not consider that version.

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Why cut out the Sherman Ic, IC composite and Vc.

    Are you limiting it to the Panzer IV to the - Ausf A, B, C, D, E, F1, F2, G, H etc which version to compare with what.

    Since you don't want the 'Firelfy' versions uncluded what about the 76mm and 105mm versions in use during WW2 or the Sherman Crocodile

    In North Africa the M4 would predominantly be armed with the 75mm which was capable of knocking out the Panzer IV in use there - the Panzer IV's were still a mix of L24 75mm and L43/48 75mm 'Specials' which could knockout the M4.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    The Sherman was more than a match for the Mark IV's initially. The Mark IV's were up-gunned and armored continuously throughout there war whereas the Sherman wasn't until very late. But I'd say that even the M4A3E8 version was probably superior to the later Mk IV's and served with distinction well into Korea and was more than a match for the T34/85 when firing the appropriate HVAP ammo as it became more plentiful...

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Yes, it really does depend which Sherman variant, and which PzKpfw IV variant, one wants to compare. The issue is complicated by the number of Sherman variants (involving significant variation), as compared with the substantial but relatively limited number of Panzer IV variants. The substantial point, as far as I am concerned, is that by the latter part of the war, the Germans were lagging significantly behind the Allies, both in terms of quantity of production and of innovation. Nonetheless, the PzKpfw IV and its assault gun and tank destroyer variants, were the most important armoured vehicles produced by the Germans during the war. Whether it would have done them much good to concentrate on producing more and upgraded Mk IVs, rather than veering off into the field of medium-heavy and heavy tanks (more expensive, complicated, difficult to replace or repair ...), well, I doubt it. Best regards, JR.

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    I dont know to much about armored and their units. I believe that the panzer IV out matched the Sherman tank in that specific campaign. I believe that the Sherman tank was slightly less effective to the panzer performance but But BUT i think with America fresh in the war they had a lot more material to produce tanks (( also since it was early in the war the U.S had plenty of young men eager to fight)). They just out massed produce the vehicle

    Life is short... We should then cherish every sec of it.

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by leccy View Post
    Why cut out the Sherman Ic, IC composite and Vc.

    Are you limiting it to the Panzer IV to the - Ausf A, B, C, D, E, F1, F2, G, H etc which version to compare with what.

    Since you don't want the 'Firelfy' versions uncluded what about the 76mm and 105mm versions in use during WW2 or the Sherman Crocodile

    In North Africa the M4 would predominantly be armed with the 75mm which was capable of knocking out the Panzer IV in use there - the Panzer IV's were still a mix of L24 75mm and L43/48 75mm 'Specials' which could knockout the M4.
    I didn't realize there were that many variations. So for arguments sake I will limit the comparison to the types that were present in North Africa, I guess that goes up to the F2. Thanks

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Is there a possibility that my theory could be correct?

    Life is short... We should then cherish every sec of it.

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Which "campaign" for your theory? North Africa? If so, you're not correct IMHO...

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    In North Africa then no, the Panzer IV was predominantly still armed with the L24 75mm support gun firing HE the Panzer IV Specials with L43/48 75mm were in short supply. The main Panzer still being Panzer III's until Tunisia.

    Lack of fuel, crews and spares of course impeded their abilities as well as a lack of supporting elements (Artillery, Engineers, Infantry, Airpower) - coupled with a lessening of the ability of the German command at all levels (possibly due to fatigue, war weariness, orders from OKW/Hitler).

    Always hard to get a definitive answer when there are so many factors to consider.

    Which of course is why many people just go to

    On a perfectly flat field, infinate distance, perfectly working tanks, equally trained and experienced crews, 1 on 1, M4A1 Dry Stowage 75mm v Panzer IV Ausf F2 -

    Which is the best?.

    An ideal and impossible situation and basically looks at paper stats.
    Last edited by leccy; 03-22-2014 at 06:02 AM.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    So all in all, I would guess that both were pretty evenly matched.

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by garm1and View Post
    So all in all, I would guess that both were pretty evenly matched.
    On balance, yes. The definitive versions of both tanks: the M4A3E8 HVSS 76mm Sherman and the Panzer Mk IV Ausf. H/J were both pretty comparable, AFIK. Both were solid, workhorse tanks for their respective armies...

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    The Sherman Firefly was the best Allied tank. It had the 17 pounder(76.3 mm) main gun.

    However I would take the IV if I had to go into battle.

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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Quote Originally Posted by cimot_cool View Post
    The Sherman Firefly was the best Allied tank. It had the 17 pounder(76.3 mm) main gun.

    However I would take the IV if I had to go into battle.
    Was the firefly better than the IS Series - the IS3 entered service before the end of WW2 and was a Soviet tank who were allies.

    The allies were not just the US and British Commonwealth.

    A Panzer IV as we have said is a little subjective - a Ausf A-F1 would be hopelessly outgunned and the earlier mks having extremely thin flat armour.

    The Ausf H got the transmission from the Panzer III as it was cheaper and quicker to produce but not as good as its previous version - the Ausf J was a cheaper to produce version that did away with power turret traverse in favour of increasing the operational range of the tank (good choice with fuel shortages).

    The Aust G or early Ausf H would probably be the best version produced.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Are we talking about both tanks through out the war or just from a certain year to year because the little knowledge I know about tanks. The Panzer IV seemed to have the edge for a bit but later I think the Sherman finally surpassed the panzer IV. With the lack resources and metal. While the Americans were able to improve their tanks quite easily compared to anyone else. since the didn't have war on their home front.

    Life is short... We should then cherish every sec of it.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Panzer IV or Sherman, which do you think was better?

    Panzer IV first produced 1936
    Sherman 1942

    In 1942 both had long 75mm guns in although the majority of Panzer IV still had the short 75mm HE support gun still (german long 75 was better than the US but both could penetrate each other at usual Western Europe combat ranges).

    In 1944 US introduced 76mm and the UK the firefly - both now outgunned the Mk IV - which was also being reduced in capability - lack of power traverse being the main one.

    So Mid war (42/43) the new model Panzer IV had the edge but by mid 1944 it was changed to the new upgunned Shermans having the edge in armour V armour combat.

    In terms of the more common role which was support to the infantry they were pretty evenly matched all through.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

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