Türk porno yayini yapan http://www.smfairview.com ve http://www.idoproxy.com adli siteler rokettube videolarini da HD kalitede yayinlayacagini acikladi. Ayrica porno indir ozelligiyle de http://www.mysticinca.com adli porno sitesi devreye girdi.
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 52

Thread: Term Paper

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,281

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by leccy View Post
    But then all those items were also in short supply in active theatres, hindsight is easy to look at and say - they should have done this - but in 1941 Britain was short of everything and fighting hard in many places, it did not know what was going to happen, if the Luftwaffe was going to return in force especially as the Axis seemed to be ripping the Soviets apart and the British Commonwealth had suffered losses in the Western Desert, Africa, Crete, Greece of men and equipment.
    True, but if Churchill hadn't gone into Greece in a campaign which at least one Commonwealth commander knew was doomed from the outset, and which like Malaya Churchill insisted on going into without the air support his military advisers considered necessary, there would have been significantly:
    1. More aircraft.
    2. More troops.
    3. More ships.
    available for other enterprises.

    It's interesting that the Greek campaign was in part a "maintain faith" exercise between Churchill and Greece which involved an Australian division largely wasted while a few months later he refused to maintain faith with Australia by delivering any of the promised resources to defend Australia from the Japanese advance resulting from his incompetent assessment of Singapore as a barrier to Japanese advancement.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    True, but if Churchill hadn't gone into Greece in a campaign which at least one Commonwealth commander knew was doomed from the outset, and which like Malaya Churchill insisted on going into without the air support his military advisers considered necessary, there would have been significantly:
    1. More aircraft.
    2. More troops.
    3. More ships.
    available for other enterprises.

    It's interesting that the Greek campaign was in part a "maintain faith" exercise between Churchill and Greece which involved an Australian division largely wasted while a few months later he refused to maintain faith with Australia by delivering any of the promised resources to defend Australia from the Japanese advance resulting from his incompetent assessment of Singapore as a barrier to Japanese advancement.
    I have always been of the opinion Churchill's motives were political

    a. Bring Greece in on the Allied side
    b. Show the world that Britain (and the Commonwealth) would assist anyone fighting the Axis and provide safe haven otherwise.
    c. Keep Turkey out (along with the payments and material supplied to Turkey by the British and US).
    d. Slim chance of success but showing the US that the British Commonwealth will fight on regardless.

    Crete although another loss I can sort of understand with the at the time unknown consequence of gutting the Fallshirmjaeger and the slightly rebuilt German transport aircraft fleet so convincing the Germans that airborne assaults were too costly or useless.

    This may have saved Malta and Gibraltar from Axis attention.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Paramilitary wing of CAMRA
    Posts
    4,099

    Default Re: Term Paper

    One thing to remember - Greece had a very large merchant shipping fleet, which we got as a result of going in to help them. Would we have still got it if we hadn't helped them and instead they had signed a Vichy-style armistice?
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: Term Paper

    I did read about that and was going to add it but could not find my source so left the Greek merchant fleet out.

    As a kiddie I read about the Greek and Crete campaigns and what disasters they were, reading now though my early impressions of all British Commonwealth forces being killed or captured was wrong, the majority of troops escaped it seems although as at the French ports minus the majority of their heavy equipment and large amounts of supplies.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Paramilitary wing of CAMRA
    Posts
    4,099

    Default Re: Term Paper

    The big disaster was the missed opportunity in North Africa to kick the Italians out before the Afrika Corps could become established. Unfortunately, nobody realised what an opportunity we had missed until it had long gone - Rommel seems to have been the only person who thought what he went on to do was even possible! The Greece and Crete campaigns didn't actually lead to terribly big losses in either men or equipment, although the Navy did lose a fair number of ships in the evacuations.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by pdf27 View Post
    The big disaster was the missed opportunity in North Africa to kick the Italians out before the Afrika Corps could become established. Unfortunately, nobody realised what an opportunity we had missed until it had long gone - Rommel seems to have been the only person who thought what he went on to do was even possible! The Greece and Crete campaigns didn't actually lead to terribly big losses in either men or equipment, although the Navy did lose a fair number of ships in the evacuations.
    Having read the supply and logistics situation in the Middle East the Commonwealth forces were at full stretch, they only got as far as they did with captured Italian Vehicles and stores. Not really sure if they could have done it now, but trying may have been a better idea in hindsight

    The common theme for the fighting was the units had outrun the logistics capability,

    At the moment I am reading Alan Morehead's 'The Desert War' trilogy

    Pretty unbiased mostly and equally praises and berates the Italians, it does though point out just how stretched the Commonwealth forces were even if a correspondants view. It does express the opinions of the Greek and Crete excursions and how they were not favoured by Middle East Command.
    Last edited by leccy; 07-28-2013 at 05:20 PM.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Paramilitary wing of CAMRA
    Posts
    4,099

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Agreed they'd gone as far as they could have gone in one bound. Not so sure that given a little time to resupply (and the forces/shipping diverted to Greece) they couldn't have restarted the offensive much sooner than they did - and under much more unfavourable conditions for the Afrika Corps.
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Victoria, Australia.
    Posts
    353

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Even after the Axis had been squeezed out of Africa in `43, bloody Churchill then insisted on a repeat cock-up
    'adventure' into the Greek Islands, sans air-support, against the advice of his[& Allied] professional military men
    with entirely predictable, wasteful & embarrassing results..

  9. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    Even after the Axis had been squeezed out of Africa in `43, bloody Churchill then insisted on a repeat cock-up
    'adventure' into the Greek Islands, sans air-support, against the advice of his[& Allied] professional military men
    with entirely predictable, wasteful & embarrassing results..
    Minor race to try and forestall the Germans after the Italians had surrendered, as much a failure on the Italian part as anything the British forces did, the allies did not know that the armistice was so secret that no Italian field forces had been told about it and it came as a shock to the units occupying Greece and Yugoslavia.

    The Allies were already fighting in Italy, Churchill at this time was already looking at forestalling communist expansion (which was rampant and the partisans arguably more effective in the Balkans than the rest), it was a gamble and race with what could be scraped together and sent. It should have had more planning and or air support but it was an ad-hoc spur of the moment race.

    Britain ended up sending more troops in 1944/45 to fight the communists in Greece in the civil war that erupted (starting in 1943 properly).
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  10. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    9,281

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by leccy View Post
    As a kiddie I read about the Greek and Crete campaigns and what disasters they were, reading now though my early impressions of all British Commonwealth forces being killed or captured was wrong, the majority of troops escaped it seems although as at the French ports minus the majority of their heavy equipment and large amounts of supplies.
    The main reason the Australian 6th Div got out in decent numbers was because their commander, Gen Blamey, knew it was a doomed campaign before it started. One of his first actions on landing in Greece was to identify evacuation points in the south, which duly assisted a moderately orderly evacuation of the defeated Australians.

    Blamey's forward planning on this aspect has often been overshadowed by criticism of his conduct in taking his only surviving son, a relatively low ranking officer, out of Greece on a plane evacuating Blamey and senior staff officers.

    Blamey wasn't a defeatist in doing a recce on evacuation points before the campaign began, but he was a realist in knowing his force had little chance of resisting the Germans. He made sound preparations accordingly.

    Blamey was a complex character http://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j34/bridgerev.asp but, whatever his many faults, he was also a strong character who generally did well as a commander, but not necessarily a field commander when he tried to combine that function in Greece and Papua / New Guinea with his office as a higher commander, when serious threats to his personal advancement weren't in issue.

    He could also be a very fair and loyal subordinate at senior levels. From memory, he was the only senior officer to see Wavell off at the airport when Wavell left the Middle East after being removed by Churchill, although Wavell and Blamey had often had a somewhat difficult relationship.
    Last edited by Rising Sun*; 07-29-2013 at 09:46 AM.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    South West
    Posts
    953

    Default Re: Term Paper

    From what I recall the Commonwealth forces only gave way from the first line as the Greeks who had been fighting hard with limited resources for months finally collapsed and opened up the flank.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Victoria, Australia.
    Posts
    353

    Default Re: Term Paper

    & the irony is, both Winnie & uncle Joe hated local commies!

    While both were nominally 'Allies'.. yet vigorously attempting to run espionage action against each other.. & Stalin's moles in British M.I. staying on for decades yet..
    Last edited by J.A.W.; 07-29-2013 at 11:06 PM.

  13. #43
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    604

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    & Geo-policy-wise, Czar-Comrade Stalin was keen to comprehensively redeem the Russian military reputation as
    THE Eurasian power after their humiliation of 40 years earlier by the arms of Nippon..
    General Zhukov inflicted very serious defeats on the Japanese during the late 30s or at the start of the 40s. The Japanese somehow failed to internalize the lessons it should have learned then and instead relaxed when their pact with the Soviet Union was signed. If you thought the Japanese were ruthless, the Soviets were an order of magnitude tougher. They were ruthless and armed with heaven weapons. The Japanese should have discerned that this was not Imperial Russia they were dealing with.
    Last edited by royal744; 07-29-2013 at 11:34 PM.

  14. #44
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Posts
    604

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Quote Originally Posted by leccy View Post
    I did read about that and was going to add it but could not find my source so left the Greek merchant fleet out.

    As a kiddie I read about the Greek and Crete campaigns and what disasters they were, reading now though my early impressions of all British Commonwealth forces being killed or captured was wrong, the majority of troops escaped it seems although as at the French ports minus the majority of their heavy equipment and large amounts of supplies.
    It was what it was, but Crete may have been one of those spongey affairs that could easily have gone the other way if the Brits had been a bit more tough, a bit more organized and a tad less disposed to pulling up stakes. The German para-troop losses were, by their admission, catastrophic. The losses were so great that further operations against Malta were foresworn as too costly. If the British defense of Maleme had been more strenuous they would have made German re-supply and reinforcement impossible. Once they lost control of that, the game was up. Too bad, A British win at that time would have been a badly-needed shot in the arm.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Victoria, Australia.
    Posts
    353

    Default Re: Term Paper

    Not possible in the face of the Germans effective air superiority..

    As for costly, it was the Royal Navy that really had to pay the price of no air cover, a lesson repeated from Norway, & still not learned though Crete to Malaya..

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •