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Thread: How Poles Helped Germans ...

  1. #16
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    It seems to me..
    ..that as original self-styled exclusive bretheren 'Chosen People of the only true God'.. the Jewish people
    must accept a fair degree of responsibility for the way they are perceived & related to..

    & they way they maintain the guilt bounty of Hitler's historical murderous onslaught is epic..

    Obviously, the Polish people feel justified in pointing out that millions of their relatives suffered & died
    during & after WW2 .. which was ostensibly kicked off to support their state/peoples self determination,
    in the face of the Nazi/Soviet pact carve-up..

  2. #17
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    It seems to me..
    ..that as original self-styled exclusive bretheren 'Chosen People of the only true God'.. the Jewish people
    must accept a fair degree of responsibility for the way they are perceived & related to..

    & they way they maintain the guilt bounty of Hitler's historical murderous onslaught is epic..

    Obviously, the Polish people feel justified in pointing out that millions of their relatives suffered & died
    during & after WW2 .. which was ostensibly kicked off to support their state/peoples self determination,
    in the face of the Nazi/Soviet pact carve-up..
    Really? Responsibility? Because the Jews believe that they are God's chosen people gave the Germans the right to slaughter them? The Mother Ship is still circling and there's still time for you to rejoin it. Good grief!

  3. #18
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    It seems to me..
    ..that as original self-styled exclusive bretheren 'Chosen People of the only true God'.. the Jewish people
    must accept a fair degree of responsibility for the way they are perceived & related to..
    Most religions do. Christians certainly do .

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    & they way they maintain the guilt bounty of Hitler's historical murderous onslaught is epic..
    If you had someone kill millions of your co-religionists because of who their ancestors were, and now live in a country surrounded by people who think his only fault was not going far enough, you'd act like that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    Obviously, the Polish people feel justified in pointing out that millions of their relatives suffered & died
    during & after WW2 .. which was ostensibly kicked off to support their state/peoples self determination,
    in the face of the Nazi/Soviet pact carve-up..
    And yet somehow in your mind the Jews, who had pretty much the same experience (Hitler blaming the war on "world Jewry" and being well-known as persecuting his own Jewish population for years by the start of the war) are whingers?
    I have neither the time nor the inclination to differentiate between the incompetent and the merely unfortunate - Curtis E LeMay

  4. #19
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    No indeed, the fact of Israel shows that Jews have done/achieved far more than just 'whinge' about it!
    The poor bloody Poles really had something to aim for there..

  5. #20

    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kregs View Post
    It interesting when one studies Eastern and Western Europe during the interwar years, as I have. In the most industrious, wealthiest countries in Western Europe, such as Germany, France, Britain, and Holland (maybe), Jews identified with the majority ethnicity in census forms and religion second. In poorer, agrarian countries such as Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Lithuania, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Ukraine (West bank), identified themselves as Jews first and their nationality second in census forms. I have a couple of theories, such as the majority ethnicity in Eastern Europe viewing Jews as a separate race, and in Western Europe less so. Unfortunately, most of those Jews aren't around to explain this peculiar circumstance, although historians might have a crack at it one of these days.
    That's a very good observation. I think this goes back to the enlightenment, when Jews were given citizenship early in the 19th century (or even earlier) in western European countries. The Jews assimilated in those countries and regarded themselves as citizens first and Jews second (that's why Jews in Germany were so shocked at how they were treated in the 1930s, especially since many of them received military commendations when fighting for the German side during WWI...I even read somewhere awhile ago that the casualty rate was higher for Jews than non-Jews during WWI on the German side). You can see the public rejection of Anti-semitism in the response to the Dreyfus Affair in France. With their new rights, many Jews in Western European countries were able to become educated and affluent.

    In contrast, the Jews in Eastern Europe (at least in Russia) were never considered equal citizens and were forced to live within a certain part of Russia (the "Pale of Settlement"). The Jews were very poor and frequently attacked in pogroms, many of which were government sanctioned. I believe that the government's different approach to the Jews and the culture was the reason for the different response to the Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by royal744
    Every time I start to feel empathy for the Poles, I'm reminded of just how lethally anti-semitic they were.
    The Poles were anti-semites...killing Jews after WWII ended, playing a major part in the murder of 340 Jews at Jedwabne and even killing Holocaust survivors who returned to their former homes. HOWEVER, the Poles also did a lot to help the Jews. More Poles were recognized as "righteous" than any other country and the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were supported by the Polish underground. There were also no Polish guards in any of the camps. Contrast that to the treatment of Jews by non-Jewish Ukrainians. The SS used Ukrainian guards in many of the camps and many Jews regarded Ukrainians as even worse than the Germans.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    It seems to me..
    ..that as original self-styled exclusive bretheren 'Chosen People of the only true God'
    Care to name a religion which isn't self-styled?

    As for the 'Chosen People of the only true God', what about the Catholic certainty that it is the one true church as expressed in the original Apostle's Creed

    I believe in the Holy Spirit,
    the holy catholic Church,


    and the later Nicene Creed

    We believe in one holy
    catholic and apostolic Church.


    both of which are necessary beliefs for Catholics as professions of their faith, and which excludes all other religions as true religions?


    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    .. the Jewish people
    must accept a fair degree of responsibility for the way they are perceived & related to..
    So, if some bigoted arsehole with the intelligence of a gnat and an abiding grudge against anyone not like his simian self decides that you are deserving of going to the gas chamber, then it's your fault?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.A.W. View Post
    & they way they maintain the guilt bounty of Hitler's historical murderous onslaught is epic..
    Undoubtedly.

    Every Holocaust survivor I've ever met, and all the children of Holocaust survivors I've ever met, have always said to me when the topic of the extermination of the ancestors and relatives comes up "You can't imagine how glad we are that members of our family were exterminated for no reason other than to allow us to glory in maintaining the guilt bounty of Hitlers's murderous onslaught."

    Your expressed views are offensive to anyone with any degree of humanity and any understanding of history.
    ..
    A rational army would run away.
    Montesquieu

  7. #22
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Discussion of Europen Jewry here led me to think on the Jews in Texas.

    I have a fair number of Jewish friends and acquaintances and went through high school and university with a goodly number of them. I think all of them were from Eastern Europe and Russia, most of their families arriving in the late 19th c. Why they came to Texas is a bit of a mystery to me except there was a lot of open space and land available to them. Most of the rural Jewish populations in Texas dwindled as sons and daughters migrated to the larger cities, so the comment in an earlier post that some if not most Jews were or became "urban" is true here. Still, I know a few who are ranchers - cowboys if you will - who run cattle along the Texas Mexico border, although my guess is they also drill for oil and take part in the fracking boom taking place here.

    One by one the rural synagogues have closed for lack of population, but the urban Jews of San Antonio, Houston, Dallas and Ft Worth appear to be thriving and growing. I think most are of the Reform persusasion but there are some Orthodox Jews here as well. Virtually all of the male Jews who were here during WW2 served in the military - the army, from the folks I know - during the war.

    One of the posters here said that the Eastern European Jews were kept on the land and restricted to certain villages in the "Pale of Settlement", were poor, if not destitute and subject to periodic pogroms. It didn't take but a single generation in this country before many of them became small businessmen, owners of large dry goods stores, hardware stores and department stores in Texas (think Neiman-Marcus, not to mention Saks, Bergdorf-Goodman, etc) and bankers. The generation after that became engineers, doctors, lawyers and dentists, and after them authors, artists, professors, historians, social workers and so on. In other words, a fairly typical immigrant trajectory.

    While there exists anti-semitism in America, it is of a low order and usually a rather low-class phenomenon as well.

  8. #23

    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by royal744 View Post
    Discussion of Europen Jewry here led me to think on the Jews in Texas.

    I have a fair number of Jewish friends and acquaintances and went through high school and university with a goodly number of them. I think all of them were from Eastern Europe and Russia, most of their families arriving in the late 19th c. Why they came to Texas is a bit of a mystery to me except there was a lot of open space and land available to them. Most of the rural Jewish populations in Texas dwindled as sons and daughters migrated to the larger cities, so the comment in an earlier post that some if not most Jews were or became "urban" is true here. Still, I know a few who are ranchers - cowboys if you will - who run cattle along the Texas Mexico border, although my guess is they also drill for oil and take part in the fracking boom taking place here.

    One by one the rural synagogues have closed for lack of population, but the urban Jews of San Antonio, Houston, Dallas and Ft Worth appear to be thriving and growing. I think most are of the Reform persusasion but there are some Orthodox Jews here as well. Virtually all of the male Jews who were here during WW2 served in the military - the army, from the folks I know - during the war.
    I know many Jews, including my own grandfather who used to live in Houston (and is also a WWII veteran), who live in Texas. If you are interested about Jews in Texas, look up the "Galveston Movement." It's an interesting anecdote of Jewish history in Texas.

    Quote Originally Posted by royal744
    One of the posters here said that the Eastern European Jews were kept on the land and restricted to certain villages in the "Pale of Settlement", were poor, if not destitute and subject to periodic pogroms. It didn't take but a single generation in this country before many of them became small businessmen, owners of large dry goods stores, hardware stores and department stores in Texas (think Neiman-Marcus, not to mention Saks, Bergdorf-Goodman, etc) and bankers. The generation after that became engineers, doctors, lawyers and dentists, and after them authors, artists, professors, historians, social workers and so on. In other words, a fairly typical immigrant trajectory.
    The Jewish immigrants were, for the most part, more successful than other immigrant groups who arrived around the same time. Many economists have measured the difference in income between Jews and non-Jews and have found that it has continued to grow. Jewish immigrants also had a much steeper income gains than other immigrant groups.

    A lot of economic and and sociological research has been conducted about the reasons for that...and of course, owing to the nature of the social sciences, a lot of theories and ideas have been put forth positing reasons for it...The reasons range from genetic advantages, cultural reasons, social capital (the benefits of being a member of a group because the members of the group help each other), specialized skills resulting from anti-Semitism in Europe and a bunch of other reasons. I personally think it's a combination of culture, social capital (not so much now but likely in the earlier generations) and history.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by flyerhell View Post
    I know many Jews, including my own grandfather who used to live in Houston (and is also a WWII veteran), who live in Texas. If you are interested about Jews in Texas, look up the "Galveston Movement." It's an interesting anecdote of Jewish history in Texas.
    Flyerhell, I'm familiar with the Galveston Movement, which had slipped my mind until you mentioned it. My high school in Houston had so many Jews in it that it was otherwise known as "Hebrew High", although the majority of students were really Christians. What it did do was raise the competitive academic stakes in the school resulting in an unusually high number of National Merit Scholars both Jewish and Christians graduating from there.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    All measures of irrational ideological based [ whether religious or political based] extremism which
    'validate' murderous actions, are sickening..

    So are claims of feeling/being 'offended' by assumed cultural difference as a preliminary justification for a chain of oppression ranging from ostracism - insults - legal/financial penalties - incarceration - judicial murder..

    Whoever does it.. King Saul, Xerxes, Emperor Titus, Charlemagne, Pope Innocent, Tamerlane, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin,
    Mao, Sharon, et al..
    Last edited by J.A.W.; 08-02-2013 at 08:29 PM.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rising Sun* View Post
    1. Nazis should not have invaded Poland.
    2. 'War' cost the Poles dearly only because of Nazi aggression.
    3. 'Poles should have been wiser' ranks with the most idiotic comments I have seen on WWII in general and the Nazi invasion of Poland in particular.

    Anyone who can demonstrate that an outbreak of wisdom in Poland would have avoided Hitler's move eastwards will be allowed to suck the crotch of my unwashed underpants, although disappointingly for you without me in them, as a suitably shitty reward for putting up a shitty argument.

    witman, You are about a micron away from confirming my view as a moderator that you are a pro-Nazi troll rather than just an ignorant ****wit and that this board would be better without your moronic comments, and that you're about to go the way of Poland. You should have been wiser.
    Personal insults asside the situation for Polish nation was:
    1. It was surrounded with 2 bigger oponents who threatened Polland throughout history.
    2. More important Poland got chunks of teritory from Germany that was historically German with German majority such as Danzig.
    3. If more powerfull neigbour to me said: "Look you got something that is clearly mine, I would like it back". And if I knew my other neighbour was just waiting for some brawl to start than I (as a rational decision) would give Danzig and territory with German majority back to Germany.

    Otherwise probably no, but given the:
    A. circumstances and probability of war which I will surely loose with all of it's consequences
    B. fact that I got something that isn't mine
    than yes. That a rational government would do. Just as Britain returned Honk Kong to China even without threat of war.

    And ofc., Hitler would have attacked anyway.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: How Poles Helped Germans ...

    Quote Originally Posted by witman111 View Post
    Personal insults asside the situation for Polish nation was:
    1. It was surrounded with 2 bigger oponents who threatened Polland throughout history.
    2. More important Poland got chunks of teritory from Germany that was historically German with German majority such as Danzig.
    3. If more powerfull neigbour to me said: "Look you got something that is clearly mine, I would like it back". And if I knew my other neighbour was just waiting for some brawl to start than I (as a rational decision) would give Danzig and territory with German majority back to Germany.

    Otherwise probably no, but given the:
    A. circumstances and probability of war which I will surely loose with all of it's consequences
    B. fact that I got something that isn't mine
    than yes. That a rational government would do. Just as Britain returned Honk Kong to China even without threat of war.

    And ofc., Hitler would have attacked anyway.
    Hong kong hmmm, you have thrown something in that is no comparison to the situation poland was in

    1 - The New Territories were leased from China, not part of Hong Kong itself
    2 - Hong kong Island was a tiny part surrounded by and with the majority of its nationals living in part of the land that was not part of hong Kong itself
    3 - Hong Kong could not survive as an independent territory once the New Territories were handed back

    Poland became an independent state or should I say regained its independence in 1918 - having been partitioned between three european empires in the 1700's

    Danzig was not part of Poland at the time - it was an independent City State with the Polish Corridor splitting East Prussia from the rest of Prussia - historically and after the reformation of Poland, a majority of the population of whom were Poles.

    What you basically are saying is might is right and big nations should be allowed to do as they wish with smaller nations. Small weaker nations should roll over and surrender to all claims right or wrong.

    Danzig Corridor was considered Polish territory by the poles - Poland was guarrenteed access to the sea - so why do you say, they knew it was not theirs - as far as they were concerned and with the 14 point plan of Woodrow Wilson it was Polish territory
    Last edited by leccy; 08-14-2014 at 05:08 PM.
    IN the days of lace-ruffles, perukes and brocade
    Brown Bess was a partner whom none could despise
    An out-spoken, flinty-lipped, brazen-faced jade,
    With a habit of looking men straight in the eyes
    At Blenheim and Ramillies fops would confess
    They were pierced to the heart by the charms of Brown Bess.

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